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Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

Bruce Monkhouse said:
You racist little tweeb......

I expected members of the directing staff being more polite.
I think you know, Osama is a guy trained by CIA and closely tied to the Saudi Royal family that stays one of the best friends of US. So you may be better to ask CIA where he is, and why it get out on TV just in the right moments to give more support  to Bush's relection. Think about this.


 
I expected members of the directing staff being more polite.

Your expectations are irrelevant. This is a private site, and you are here at the pleasure of the owner. Once again, you display dual standards. Your wish for "mutual understanding" includes condescending comments about another's opinion. Your "quest for politeness" from the Staff does not include your own (prejudiced) comments.

Let me be crystal clear - unless you change your style of debate, your days (hours?) here are numbered. We have had holier-than-thou, enlightened intellectuals drop in here before, and chant their enlightened mantras to we, the ignorant. Many posters here have been in the regions you speak of, interacting with the populations. They know what they have seen and experienced.

Your last warning.

Army.ca Staff
 
I guess all those women and children now able to go to school and actually learn are of no account in this equation eh? The training facilities that are being built to improve the prospects of the population don't count either right?
I wonder what South Korea would be like today if the Western World had not intervened? they'd be starving to death and ignorant as sin like their comrades in the North. I think the people of the south would disagree with the proposition that it didn't matter whose soldiers were fighting there...the soldiers of democracy and freedom or the soldiers of communism and totalitarianism.
Some people need to give their heads a shake.
 
Flanker said:
I expected members of the directing staff being more polite.
I think you know, Osama is a guy trained by CIA and closely tied to the Saudi Royal family that stays one of the best friends of US. So you may be better to ask CIA where he is, and why it get out on TV just in the right moments to give more support  to Bush's relection. Think about this.
...

Who trained Osama bin Laden was not the reason a Mod called you a racist.  You suggested that the Koran advocates murdering the person who has just done you a service.  I think that seriously mangles the truth.  I think it insults Muslims and their holy book.  I don't know how many Muslims are members of Army.ca but, given their level of representation in Canada and in the CF, I suspect there are several.  I'm surprised the Mods didn't show you the door; it seems to me you have gratuitously insulted other members.

I think you're a troll, I hope you're a troll because the alternative is that you're a racist fool.
 
Flanker said:
In that case, be ready to stay there for the next century or so.

No doubt that you have good intentions.
The problem is that the Afghan people does not undestand these intentions as you undestand them.
They will be graceful for a jam can that you give to them in a morning and kill you in the evening because Koran says that. 

Do you think "freedom" and "democracy" are properly undestood and fit any country accros the world?
You would be surprised but it is not the case. There is a question of an evolution path that the country should follow.
Let them decide without an external military presence.

How naive can you get?

PART I  Tell me how long it took to bring peace to Europe after WW II?  When did the last Allied Troops withdraw out of Germany?  
PART II  Tell us all how long it took to bring peace to Japan after WW II?  When did the last Allied Troops pull out of Japan?  
PART III  Tell us how long it took to bring peace to Korea?  When did the last Allied UN Troops leave Korea?  
PART IV  How long did it take to bring Peace to Cyprus?  When did all the UN Forces finally withdraw from Cyprus?  
PART V  How long did it take to bring Peace to the Middle East?  When did all the UN Forces finally leave the Middle East?

Do we have to go on to any more PARTs?

Do you seriously think that we can stabilize and bring peace to Afghanistan with the snap of our fingers?  Get real!  Even Hollywood can't do that.  

PS.  You should try to use SPELL CHECK to correct your "understand", "understood" and other words that you are omitting or adding letters to.
 
Flanker said:
One must understand that the real solution for the Afghan problem is not democracy, presidential elections or NATO military presence.

It is economy. E-C-O-N-O-M-Y.
The Afghanistan solution is far more complex than the one dimensional system that you’ve broken it down to.  One facet most certainly is economy, and you may be right that we could/should be doing more on this front.  However, it is also essential to have a functioning government that will lead the Afghan people to the future they want.

Flanker said:
I think you know, Osama is a guy trained by CIA and closely tied to the Saudi Royal family that stays one of the best friends of US.
Thank you for your guilty by association irrelevancy.  Well, “irrelevant” unless you believe that the wife, children, siblings, parents, cousins, uncles, aunts & grandparents of a bank robber should also go to jail for the crimes of the bank robber (in which case, I’d just say you are wrong).
 
These trolls ALWAYS frame the thing as US(meaning imperialist white guys) vs Them
(meaning the total population of Afghanistan).  
They also fail to propose a resolution or remedy to a complex situation.

First - The Taliban were not kicked out of power solely by western forces.
The Northern Alliance who represent a majority in Afghanistan were
made it possible to oust the Taliban in a way Western voters could accept.

Second- The Northern Alliance form a large part of the current government
of Afghanistan, as they should.

Third- NATO is there to support that government, warts and all, because they
were legitimately elected and not to do so would inhumane.

There is no liberation - or even a faintly happy ending if NATO were to leave.

The troll as a species appears to have a particular fondness for anarchy.
Law and order are anathema to them and actually so are the facts.
The troll is often motivated by feelings and appearances they do not understand.
The troll often seeks to apply a double standard and would like to win an
argument based on the thinest evidence available.

Mr Wallace brought Japan as example to us.
Good example of "American Imperialism" at work.

I hope I remember the details correctly;

The current constitution of Japan was written by American staff Officers and
imposed by force at the end of WWII. This constitution has remained largely
unchanged by the Japanese for 60 years.(there were some minor changes in the 90s)

Japans' economy was subjected to American management models and practices
in much the same way and Japan is now one of the great economies on earth.

Having democracy and prosperity forced on them the Japanese are only now
getting over it. ::)

Yea - right, democracy can't be transplanted.

 










 
 
In any case the CIA did not "train" or work directly with bin Laden.  From an online session with Steve Coll, author of "Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001" (Penguin Press, 2004):
http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorintelligence/ghostwars.html

Wheaton, Md.: There have been accusations from the left that have directly accused the CIA of funding and training bin Laden. Is there any truth to this ?

Steve Coll: I did not discover any evidence of direct contact between CIA officers and bin Laden during the 1980s, when they were working more or less in common cause against the Soviets. CIA officials, including Tenet, have denied under oath that such contact took place. The CIA was certainly aware of bin Laden's activities, beginning in the mid- to late-1980s, and they generally looked favorably on what he was doing at that time. But bin Laden's direct contacts were with Saudi intelligence and to some extent Pakistani intelligence, not with the Americans. There's a lot more detail about this in the book than I have space for here.

There is more detail on this in the first full paragraph of p. 87 of the hardcover edition.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781594200076&itm=2

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
In any case the CIA did not "train" or work directly with bin Laden.  From an online session with Steve Coll, author of "Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001" (Penguin Press, 2004):
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781594200076&itm=2

There is more detail on this in the first full paragraph of p. 87 of the hardcover edition.

Mark
Ottawa

MARK...how dare you challenge a left wing myth? they have the only truth did you not know that?? They never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy story. ::)
 
Flanker that was a small piece of what I wrote.... it's amazing what it looks like after bending it a little to fit your needs.
Happy trails 
 
Flanker might benefit from an encounter with reality, and with Duke:
http://imdb.com/title/tt0049730/

Troll off whilst one Fords on.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Flanker said:
They will be graceful for a jam can that you give to them in a morning and kill you in the evening because Koran says that. 

I see many of you have taken this phrase as a straight anti-muslim statement, which was not.
First, my sincere apologies for this misunderstanding and improper language.

Put instead "tribal leaders", "opposition radicals" or whatever else.

What I mean is that just the fact to provide financial/material help does not mean you buy automatically the right to change a nation's law, traditions and customs.

These are two separate things.

Why this distinction is important?
First, because in spite of external legitimacy, elections and so on, many people still see the actual Afghan president as a western-provided leader. That is fatal for him and for his authority.
Second, as we saw in other countries, to transplant an external political system you need the both:

1. Working economy
2. Long external military presence (tens of years)

If one of them is missing, all the efforts end up a new civil war, instability and ruined country.




 
Then I will retract my "racist little tweeb" comment.........
 
Flanker seems to be saying what many others, in CF uniform as well as others have said.  Every society has its ingrained "natural" leadership structure.  The fastest way to establish order is to work with that structure.  The fastest way to create disorder is to work against the grain of that structure.

Trying to impose a new culture, in particular a new leadership structure, works against the grain.  What the Brits in southern Iraq tried to do, what Petraeus is currently trying to do, what Karzai did initially with his grand Loya Jirga, was to work with the grain of the leadership.  Then, as General Hillier and the PM have said, agreeing with Flanker, it is a work of decades if not generations, to divert the culture to "modern" practices.

We use the expression "Peace, Order and Good Governance".  It is becoming clearer to me that we have the sequence wrong.  It should be "Order, Good Governance, Peace".

What Iraq and Afghanistan are demonstrating to our generation is that Security is the first requirement of any society.  For security to be possible it is necessary to establish Order - and that can require cracking a few heads but preferably as few as possible.  This can be accomplished by getting the "natural" leaders on side to control their people and their instincts.

Once Order prevails then trust in the Government (whoever that is - but ultimately it is the person with the biggest stick) can be built up by demonstrating Good Governance.  If the Government is supplying Security, delivering Justice and Patronage, not being abusive with its big stick, supplying Good Governance and ultimately being worthy of Trust  then Peace will prevail.

The meat industry doesn't let spectators onto the kill floor and they are cautious about the making of sausages.  They are both messy, necessary processes that are not reflected in the final product.

Establishing order is likewise a messy, necessary process that would be better off not seen.  Unfortunately that is no longer possible these days so the only option is to try and educate the squeemish to accept the necessity for the mess, figure out how to keep the mess to a minimum and how to clean it up as quickly as possible.  That, in my humble opinion, means making deals with the devil himself if necessary, then trying to mend his ways, or separate him from his flock, or "encourage" a local replacement - even if that means allowing localized disorder to prevail for a while.
 
Which makes that to often used term "win" irrelevant. ISAF should leave when the Afghanistan government is "master of it's own house."
Our military leadership is quite aware of this fact, but few Canadians give them credit for having this understanding of the situation.
 
Baden  Guy said:
Which makes that to often used term "win" irrelevant. ISAF should leave when the Afghanistan government is "master of it's own house."
Our military leadership is quite aware of this fact, but few Canadians give them credit for having this understanding of the situation.

And that's a fact.
 
Kirkhill said:
Flanker seems to be saying what many others, in CF uniform as well as others have said.  Every society has its ingrained "natural" leadership structure.  The fastest way to establish order is to work with that structure.  The fastest way to create disorder is to work against the grain of that structure.
Our approach is to use that structure & develop its connections (between local elders and provincial authorities) in order to get all levels of Afghan government working together toward their vision of their country/province/village's future.
 
In the event that we had to leave afghanistan in 2009, could soldiers choose to stay there? Sort of like the Boer War (although that was a LONG time ago). What about the option of having troops choose to either stay or leave? So instead of a regular unit being sent on rotation, there would be people who choose to go. Would this work at all? Providing that Canada still provides the same amount of aid to the country and all troops got the same about of benefits over there as they do now. Maybe if a cap on how many people could be their (2500).
 
LoboCanada said:
In the event that we had to leave afghanistan in 2009, could soldiers choose to stay there? Sort of like the Boer War (although that was a LONG time ago). What about the option of having troops choose to either stay or leave? So instead of a regular unit being sent on rotation, there would be people who choose to go. Would this work at all? Providing that Canada still provides the same amount of aid to the country and all troops got the same about of benefits over there as they do now. Maybe if a cap on how many people could be their (2500).

In the South African War, those Canadian soldiers who "chose to stay" did so by taking their release and then enlisting in local units like the South African Constabulary.  They did not remain there on the Canadian payroll or with Canadian benefits.  Once the Canadian Government decides to cease military operations in Afghanistan, there will not be an option for soldiers to voluntarily remain behind as independent operators and collect the same benefits.

 
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