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Piper, my post was in reference to already deleted stuff about growing new body parts.
Taking care of oneself is a Lesson Learned, IMO.
Taking care of oneself is a Lesson Learned, IMO.
Afghanistan: Lessons Learned (merged)
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RHFC_piper
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Ah... seen.
Good stuff.
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RHFC_piper said:
On the topic of body armor......
As anyone in the combat arms knows, the ballistic plates we get issued are junk. but check this guys stuff out
www.inventortroy.com
now that stuff would be very helpfull in the sand box, and im sure would save alot of lives.
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I havn`t done any research on it, but I`m combat arms and I know of one fellow from my tour (1-06) that might argue this point as his performed as advertised against an AK round. There might be better or lighter or whatever-er plates out there but I wouldn`t go so far as to say our`s are junk as that would indicate they don`t do as they are suppose to which I have seen that they do.
IMHO - far from the best possible but not junk
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Teflon said:
by me saying "junk" i mean one round and the structural integrity has been sacrificed and the plate will no longer stop rounds. Compare our plates to the plate demos on the link i previously posted.
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I'm pretty sure it was our plates they used at the demo at CFSAC this year where they shot it over and over with a Lee Enfield .303 without any penetrations. There are plates that are lighter, thinner and a have a higher protection level though. More then better plates we need a vest that is cut to move with our body and ventilate better. Its only a matter of time before we're wearing side SAPI plates, hopefully they don't just bastardize the current vest to make it work.
daftandbarmy
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Some relevant beta from the Jar Heads... bless 'em
Marines Lighten Up On Protection
January 5, 2009: U.S. Marine Corps has ordered that it's standard MTV protective vests be made lighter and more flexible. This came after growing complaints from the troops, who have flooded message boards with bad-news stories of how their heavy and restrictive "flak jackets" have put them in danger during combat, A year ago, in an initial response to those complaints, the Marine Corps gave combat commanders the authority to allow their troops to go into action without some, or all, of their protective equipment. The marines tend to be more innovative, and use more initiative, in matters like this. Even so, senior marine officers had been putting off making this decision. That is a form of good news to the junior officers, who actually get shot at, because it meant the brass were finally willing to put their careers on the line, and give the combat commanders the authority to have troops shed armor when the situation calls for it.
Most of the problems came about when marines began receiving a new protective vest, the Scalable Plate Carrier (SPC), in 2007. This one was a little lighter, but a lot less bulky, one (MTV, or Modular Tactical vest) introduced in 2004. First it went to Afghanistan , where moving up and down hills is a lot more strenuous than the generally flat terrain of Iraq . But marines still complained about the 80,000 MTV vests that had been issued, which are considered too heavy and restrictive. Only about 5,000 SPC vests have been issued.
All this is the result of a six year old debate in the infantry community over how much body armor is actually needed. There are times when the troops have to move fast (as when chasing down a sniper). But the senior commanders are under a lot of pressure to keep friendly casualties down, so they tend to insist that the troops wear all their armor all the time. Despite this, some subordinate commanders look the other way when troops shed their armor, or parts of it, to temporarily to get some needed speed. Over the last few years, pressure from the media and politicians has caused several additional items to be added to the standard protective vest. This was welcomed by reservists doing a lot of convoy duty, but not by infantry running around after the enemy. The latest protective vests have a quick release feature, that makes it easier to get the vest off, and back on again.
Many soldiers and marines point out that the SOCOM operators (Special Forces and SEALs) will sometimes go into action without their protective vests. Again, that is done because completion of the mission is more important than covering your ass when a reporter goes after you for "unnecessary casualties."
Many of the troops are willing to take the risk, because they believe, for example, that taking down a sniper when you have the chance, is worth it. If you don't catch the guy, he will be back in action the next day, kill American troops. All this is another example of the fact that "victory" is defined differently, depending on what your rank is.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20090105.aspx
Marines Lighten Up On Protection
January 5, 2009: U.S. Marine Corps has ordered that it's standard MTV protective vests be made lighter and more flexible. This came after growing complaints from the troops, who have flooded message boards with bad-news stories of how their heavy and restrictive "flak jackets" have put them in danger during combat, A year ago, in an initial response to those complaints, the Marine Corps gave combat commanders the authority to allow their troops to go into action without some, or all, of their protective equipment. The marines tend to be more innovative, and use more initiative, in matters like this. Even so, senior marine officers had been putting off making this decision. That is a form of good news to the junior officers, who actually get shot at, because it meant the brass were finally willing to put their careers on the line, and give the combat commanders the authority to have troops shed armor when the situation calls for it.
Most of the problems came about when marines began receiving a new protective vest, the Scalable Plate Carrier (SPC), in 2007. This one was a little lighter, but a lot less bulky, one (MTV, or Modular Tactical vest) introduced in 2004. First it went to Afghanistan , where moving up and down hills is a lot more strenuous than the generally flat terrain of Iraq . But marines still complained about the 80,000 MTV vests that had been issued, which are considered too heavy and restrictive. Only about 5,000 SPC vests have been issued.
All this is the result of a six year old debate in the infantry community over how much body armor is actually needed. There are times when the troops have to move fast (as when chasing down a sniper). But the senior commanders are under a lot of pressure to keep friendly casualties down, so they tend to insist that the troops wear all their armor all the time. Despite this, some subordinate commanders look the other way when troops shed their armor, or parts of it, to temporarily to get some needed speed. Over the last few years, pressure from the media and politicians has caused several additional items to be added to the standard protective vest. This was welcomed by reservists doing a lot of convoy duty, but not by infantry running around after the enemy. The latest protective vests have a quick release feature, that makes it easier to get the vest off, and back on again.
Many soldiers and marines point out that the SOCOM operators (Special Forces and SEALs) will sometimes go into action without their protective vests. Again, that is done because completion of the mission is more important than covering your ass when a reporter goes after you for "unnecessary casualties."
Many of the troops are willing to take the risk, because they believe, for example, that taking down a sniper when you have the chance, is worth it. If you don't catch the guy, he will be back in action the next day, kill American troops. All this is another example of the fact that "victory" is defined differently, depending on what your rank is.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20090105.aspx
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<slight rewind-highjack>
Re: hearing conservation in combat, looks like DRDC is seeking someone to look specifically into the issue....
</slight rewind-highjack>
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...
Re: hearing conservation in combat, looks like DRDC is seeking someone to look specifically into the issue....
</slight rewind-highjack>
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...
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Example...
http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/12/24/year-in-pictures/afghanistan/
U.S. Marine Sgt. William Olas Bee flinches after nearly being hit by Taliban gunfire in Helmand province. (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS) Maclean's 2008 Year in Pictures
http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/12/24/year-in-pictures/afghanistan/
U.S. Marine Sgt. William Olas Bee flinches after nearly being hit by Taliban gunfire in Helmand province. (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS) Maclean's 2008 Year in Pictures
RHFC_piper
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Freeze said:
This is why PPE (specifically BEW, hearing protection and helmet) are worn... situation pending, of course.
That's an amazing picture, btw.
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This vignette by Graeme Wood caught my attention for its realism--could almost taste the grit of the sand and feel the soldier's frustration when I read it. Features Captain Sean Wilson of the Royal Canadian Regiment:
Lessons Learned: Graeme Wood, The Walrus Magazine, November 2009
The Afghan called Teacher is deep in Taliban country, crouching halfway up a mountainside at dawn, listening for the approach of a US Army Kiowa attack helicopter. Teacher has huddled with his AK-47, pressed against a rock and keeping lookout, many times before. But he has never done so while eating cheese tortellini and trail mix.
Teacher has picked out one of the halal rations offered by his employer, the Canadian military. A jihadi never ate so well. Back in the 1980s, when the helicopters that zoomed overhead aimed their guns at him, Teacher ate little other than bread, fruit, and on special occasions a pot of rice. Now he translates Dari and Pashto for a small Canadian battle unit that trains the ragtag Afghan National Army. The US helicopters fly overhead in support. As an interpreter and counterinsurgency sherpa, Teacher advises Sean Wilson, a wiry captain from the Royal Canadian Regiment, and shadows him on raids, searches of suspected Taliban hideouts, and patrols through mined and booby-trapped defiles.
Today Teacher and Wilson are leading an Afghan-Canadian patrol up the tight switchbacks above Darvishan village, just northwest of Kandahar. Taliban hide and use mountain compounds here as bases for attacks on the relatively government-friendly district centre below. Wilson’s Afghan counterpart, on this day Captain Faizullah, leads his men from the rear, and like them he seems frustrated by the strain of the summer morning hike.
Not a shot has been fired. It is thirty-nine degrees, and the Canadians are wheezing under their packs and weapons. Teacher is in his late forties, so he wheezes a little, too. But he still scampers, goatlike, nearly as spryly as soldiers half his age. This is in part because he carries only slightly more than he ever did: a Kalashnikov, a radio, and nowadays a self-heating ration, body armour, and a fancy Camelbak hydration system.
Unlike Wilson, whose French and English earn him blank glares from Afghans, Teacher speaks the languages and can extract tips about where bombs and booby traps lie. Moreover, he has an uncanny eye of his own. “He just has a sense,” Wilson says. “He knows where the Taliban are going to set an IED. He’ll just stop and point at a spot on the ground and say, ‘That doesn’t look right.’ ” Wilson says that sense has saved the group’s lives many times over... continued on link
Lessons Learned: Graeme Wood, The Walrus Magazine, November 2009
The Afghan called Teacher is deep in Taliban country, crouching halfway up a mountainside at dawn, listening for the approach of a US Army Kiowa attack helicopter. Teacher has huddled with his AK-47, pressed against a rock and keeping lookout, many times before. But he has never done so while eating cheese tortellini and trail mix.
Teacher has picked out one of the halal rations offered by his employer, the Canadian military. A jihadi never ate so well. Back in the 1980s, when the helicopters that zoomed overhead aimed their guns at him, Teacher ate little other than bread, fruit, and on special occasions a pot of rice. Now he translates Dari and Pashto for a small Canadian battle unit that trains the ragtag Afghan National Army. The US helicopters fly overhead in support. As an interpreter and counterinsurgency sherpa, Teacher advises Sean Wilson, a wiry captain from the Royal Canadian Regiment, and shadows him on raids, searches of suspected Taliban hideouts, and patrols through mined and booby-trapped defiles.
Today Teacher and Wilson are leading an Afghan-Canadian patrol up the tight switchbacks above Darvishan village, just northwest of Kandahar. Taliban hide and use mountain compounds here as bases for attacks on the relatively government-friendly district centre below. Wilson’s Afghan counterpart, on this day Captain Faizullah, leads his men from the rear, and like them he seems frustrated by the strain of the summer morning hike.
Not a shot has been fired. It is thirty-nine degrees, and the Canadians are wheezing under their packs and weapons. Teacher is in his late forties, so he wheezes a little, too. But he still scampers, goatlike, nearly as spryly as soldiers half his age. This is in part because he carries only slightly more than he ever did: a Kalashnikov, a radio, and nowadays a self-heating ration, body armour, and a fancy Camelbak hydration system.
Unlike Wilson, whose French and English earn him blank glares from Afghans, Teacher speaks the languages and can extract tips about where bombs and booby traps lie. Moreover, he has an uncanny eye of his own. “He just has a sense,” Wilson says. “He knows where the Taliban are going to set an IED. He’ll just stop and point at a spot on the ground and say, ‘That doesn’t look right.’ ” Wilson says that sense has saved the group’s lives many times over... continued on link
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Freeze said:
Oh man.. The response that photo is quite funny... But unrealistic.
daftandbarmy
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Kirkhill said:
Basic load of a British infantryman in Belfast ca. 1986: Beret, flak vest, belt, water bottle, 5 mags, rifle, notebook (plus radio or ECM as required). Troops had a bergen packed that we would deliver to them if they got stuck on a longer term cordon or some other op. Flak vest was worn in urban areas due to higher likelihood of bricks and bottles, sniper attack and concentrated effects of blast channeled down streets etc. Wet weather plan? Get wet.... the flak vest kept you warm-ish. 'Mobile, agile and hostile' was the motto.
Basic load for same period in South Armagh: Beret (no flak vest) 5 mags, patrol day pack (rain gear, scoff for the day, jumper), water bottle, rifle/GPMG/M203, radio/ECM. For multi-day ops in the cuds add bergen with basha, doss bag, 2 - 3 days scoff & batteries, some extra ammo, surveillance gear. Longer ops requiring resupply would be supported from the base through covert vehicle DOP, heli DOP, or dead/live letter boxes. I remember being asked if we wanted to trial flak vests in S. Armagh and politely telling Bn HQ to eff off as it was ridiculous expecting troops to wear it while clambering through the Irish 'bocage'. Patrol dress in urban areas like Crossmaglem was similar to the Belfast example.
I've talked to guys who fought in Rhodesia & South Africa and they weren't much different.
And now it seems that the troops are being loaded down like Xmas trees as part of an elaborate butt covering exercise. But I would suggest there's a difference in the level of political risk countries are willing to take when fighting a COIN campaign in their own country vs. doing someone else a favour.
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I went through my gear with my NCOs and we tried to figure out what was "useless stuff" we were forced to carry. To be honest, there really wasn't much useless stuff.
I went through my gear and I had:
- batteries
- ammo (not an excessive amount, either - 7 mags and a belt of 7.62 link or an M72)
- 1 frag and 3 smoke (Comd needs smoke)
- water
- emergency ration
- MBitr
- AN/PVS-14 MNVG
- Rifle
- First aid kit
- Lightweight blanket (found out the hard way to always have one)
- Map and small notebook for order, etc.
I was still extremely burdened on patrols. My signaller, weapons guys and engineers had even more weight. None of these guys were carrying useless gear. For all the critics chanting "we are too burdened down", what do I get rid of - the batteries for the radio? Water? Support weapon ammo?
When we looked at it, we realized that there was no getting away from the weight - if you are going to reduce the soldier's load, you need to re-engineer the essentials, not eliminate them. The three heaviest things for a soldier in Afghanistan are:
1. Body armour - no doubt about it, this is by far the heaviest and most cumbersome piece. This is a tough one, because there are political aspects to it as well (no commander wants to send a soldier home - and no government wants a casualty - who would have been alive with a kevlar insert somewhere). Still, it is bulky, restrictive and fatiguing. The single greatest improvement to reducing loads on soldiers is to develop new lighter protective technologies;
2. Water - There is no getting around this one either. Take a hot environment like Afghanistan and add body armour and you need lots of water. Water is heavy. Using local stuff is a serious risk, especially in the greenzones where the humans dump everything into the ground. Reduce the armour load, reduce the water requirement.
3. Batteries - Nothing like carrying a brick for a radio that is the same size as the ones carried into Normandy that was designed in the 70s, built in the 80s and fielded in the 90s. MBITRs were generally as effective, if not more effective than 522s, but were in short supply. As a result, soldiers carried big radios and big bulky batteries.
I went through my gear and I had:
- batteries
- ammo (not an excessive amount, either - 7 mags and a belt of 7.62 link or an M72)
- 1 frag and 3 smoke (Comd needs smoke)
- water
- emergency ration
- MBitr
- AN/PVS-14 MNVG
- Rifle
- First aid kit
- Lightweight blanket (found out the hard way to always have one)
- Map and small notebook for order, etc.
I was still extremely burdened on patrols. My signaller, weapons guys and engineers had even more weight. None of these guys were carrying useless gear. For all the critics chanting "we are too burdened down", what do I get rid of - the batteries for the radio? Water? Support weapon ammo?
When we looked at it, we realized that there was no getting away from the weight - if you are going to reduce the soldier's load, you need to re-engineer the essentials, not eliminate them. The three heaviest things for a soldier in Afghanistan are:
1. Body armour - no doubt about it, this is by far the heaviest and most cumbersome piece. This is a tough one, because there are political aspects to it as well (no commander wants to send a soldier home - and no government wants a casualty - who would have been alive with a kevlar insert somewhere). Still, it is bulky, restrictive and fatiguing. The single greatest improvement to reducing loads on soldiers is to develop new lighter protective technologies;
2. Water - There is no getting around this one either. Take a hot environment like Afghanistan and add body armour and you need lots of water. Water is heavy. Using local stuff is a serious risk, especially in the greenzones where the humans dump everything into the ground. Reduce the armour load, reduce the water requirement.
3. Batteries - Nothing like carrying a brick for a radio that is the same size as the ones carried into Normandy that was designed in the 70s, built in the 80s and fielded in the 90s. MBITRs were generally as effective, if not more effective than 522s, but were in short supply. As a result, soldiers carried big radios and big bulky batteries.
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Infanteer said:
Need to add PCM to this list. I carried it for the second half on my tour basically, and it sucks. Not only is it more heavy than a radio, it generates heat like no tomorrow. Plus, someone else needs to carry spare batteries (10lbs each).. And don't even get me started on the manpack it has to be carried in.. Thing was a nightmare to get comfortable..
Edit to add: Also, while carrying the PCM, you can't carry your own backpack so everyone else is stuck carrying your water as well as the extra ammo you would normally carry. Best I was able to do was strap a camel back to the top, cause anywhere else and it will block the exhaust fans causing it to melt the bladder.. (seen it happen twice)
I disagree with you about the flak vest. I didn't find it that bad. Might just be me, but I never really heard anyone complain about it either and we had days when we patrolled for upwards of 14 hours in the summer.. The issued tac vests are where my biggest complaint was, and due to a gong show before tour everyone put off getting one of their own.. So I did my first month with that thing.. Try carrying 8 mags and 8 M203 rounds in that thing.. Its just foolish.
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Infanteer said:
I think this is one area we can get the most effective and quickest change, as there are lighter/longer lasting batteries out there. I hope you guys at least had the lithium batteries if you were using 177F or 522, probably about 1/3 the weight and last far longer in higher temps. I can't imagine having to carry a 522 with 6x BB-390 (newer, heavier batteries) and then start handing out more batteries to guys in a section who are already carrying ammo/water.
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Sythen said:
That was to me a Comd's decision - I only took it out if we were deliberately seeking a suspected or known IED. Other than that, it was too much to take for just 1-2 men to have coverage.
Well, I didn't hear anyone say it was light. It is the single heaviest piece of equipment we carry. If you cut the 30+ pounds down by 10-15 with new technology, you are making significant weight gains.
As for the tacvest, none of my soldiers wore it.
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Infanteer said:
Unfortunately, the area we were in had an extremely high concentration of IED's. We found/were hit by too many not to bring it every time, so its sort of a ground dictates on this one I guess.. Regardless, talking about improved technology some of the guys were saying the Brits and Americans had a much smaller version that weighed like 5lbs.. They just had more of them like one per fire team.. Would've been nice!
On a slightly different note than combat loads, one thing our section commander had us start doing was bringing a ladder with us on patrols.. It made traversing grape rows so much easier, and in urban settings we could put a fire team on a roof, or avoid the main paths completely. We only stopped carrying it because the ANA and AUP were worried we would use it to watch some women in the compounds.. But until then it was weight I didn't mind carrying at all cause in the long run it saved so much energy and effort.
