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Afghan Detainee Mega Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter rceme_rat
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I do know of an incident where apprehended persons were released lest the aprehending call sign be ordered to turn them over t0 the local police (manned by a different ethnic group).

We thought the Sgt made a pretty slick move at the time.

This was about seven years ago.
 
Well, well, well...

Today, the media is all OVER a Human Rights Watch open letter on how Afghan detainees were being treated in November 2006.

Well, I did a bit of searching - how many Canadian media outlets wrote about this letter when it was posted to the HRW web page in November of last year?  I did a search for "Human Rights Watch" and "Afghanistan" for all of November 2006, and collected all the results -- you be the judge....
 
Jonathan Kay analyzes the sheer silliness of the "debate" in Canada (I would call it sophomoric, not "grad school"):
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=0f8439e5-da7b-4cf0-8519-78dc0a7ae184

Last week's headline-hogging story was alleged prisoner abuse in Afghanistan. Well, not so much alleged prisoner abuse in Afghanistan itself, but rather what different Canadian politicians had to say about alleged prisoner abuse in Afghanistan. "Ottawa stirs storm of confusion," blared The Globe and Mail in an especially breathless Friday banner headline. And then another front page Globe splash on Saturday: "The government's changing story."

Even if the charge of Canadian wrongdoing remains unproven, the barrage of accusations made for compelling Question Period theatre. Certainly, it was enough to relegate the following boring news factoid to the back pages: According to a survey of Afghanistan by researchers at The Johns Hopkins University, the country's infant mortality rate has declined markedly since the Taliban were ousted in late 2001...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/world/middleeast/27kabul.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Scratch that. It turns out we're a nation of war criminals. Or so I am informed by University of British Columbia professor Michael Byers, who claimed in Sunday's Toronto Star that the available evidence suggests Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor and Chief of Defence Staff General Rick Hillier are "playing fast and loose with torture," and are pursuing a "policy of war crimes." Byers is asking the International Criminal Court to examine the case, a path that could (in theory) result in the incarceration of O'Connor and Hillier in The Hague.

But why stop there? As Byers himself writes, the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court targets not only torturers but everyone "up the chain of command." Shouldn't that mean Stephen Harper and everyone in his Cabinet?

And that's not all. As Joel-Denis Bellavance reported in La Presse on Saturday, documents obtained from Canada's Foreign Affairs Department show that the Liberal government was warned in 2003, 2004 and 2005 that torture was an ongoing practice in Afghan prisons. Yet Paul Martin nonetheless signed a 2005 agreement by which our soldiers would transfer detainees to Afghan custody. Following on Byers' initiative, maybe we should be preparing to cuff former defense minister Bill Graham -- not to mention his boss Paul Martin, and perhaps even his one-time environment minister.

This all sounds like a joke, which I suppose it is. But Byers' modest proposal hits on a serious problem: While our soldiers are at war with Islamist terrorists, our elites -- including not just the usual suspects in the ivory tower, but senior media figures and opposition politicians -- are treating the whole exercise like one big human rights grad seminar.

I'm not disputing the seriousness of the torture allegations: Not only is torture inhumane, but empirical evidence suggests it's not even much use at getting information from true terrorists. However, I object equally to the idea that our tangential, involuntary involvement in the alleged mistreatment of a few dozen suspects amounts to "war crimes."..

...As the infant mortality numbers cited above show, NATO troops have made a difference -- but only because they've cut necessary deals with a dubious national government propped up by dubious local warlords.

As a matter of grad-seminar morality, no, this isn't perfect. But the only other option in a place like Afghanistan is to send in hundreds of thousands of troops and take over the country lock, stock and barrel-- which no one advocates; or to get out of the place entirely, which would amount to sending it back to the Middle Ages...

Mark
Ottawa

 
Babbling Brooks said:
Excellent question. 
I suppose the partner to that question is - woud there have been a public outcry if detainees were taken on a peacekeeping operation and Canada decided keep the detainees as opposed to returning them to their national authorities?
 
MCG said:
I'm starting to think that some academics are really just on personal crusades to crucify the CDS.

Starting? Having spent to much time on left wing websites, I can assure you that Hiller is considered to be the person that singlhandly turned our peacekeepers into bloodsucking babykillers..... ::)

He is target #2, you can guess who #1 is.
 
Two posts at The Torch--the first an excellent bit of research on Prof. Byers by Damian Brooks, the second by me making Colin P's point:

I guess context doesn't matter anymore
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/i-guess-context-doesnt-matter-anymore.html

Globe guns for Gen. Hillier
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/globe-guns-for-gen-hillier.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Allegations a needless distraction for troops: Hillier
Meagan Fitzpatrick, CanWest News Service
Published: Wednesday, May 02, 2007

Some Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are angry about the political bickering raging at home over allegations of detainee abuse, the chief of the defence staff said.

“Let me just come out and say very frankly here, I met a variety of soldiers who are pissed off,” Gen. Rick Hillier told reporters at the Kandahar air base.

“They are angry that these allegations have detracted from the overall mission here – the focus back in Canada, specifically, on the enormous amount of good that is being done, on the incredible things that are happening here in Kandahar province and around the rest of Afghanistan, and the additional security and the stability and the hope for a future that we are bringing to millions of Afghans.”

Hillier arrived in Afghanistan Wednesday morning along with the Stanley Cup and a group of former NHL players and other guests who wanted to visit with the troops.

Canada’s top soldier said despite the as-yet unproven allegations that detainees handed over by Canadian soldiers to Afghan authorities have been tortured, he’s keeping focused on the mission.

“We have business to do. You heard what my focus is — that’s looking after Canada’s sons and daughters as they do the job here and that’s what I remain focused on,” Hillier said.

Noting that the Canadian government is investigating the prisoner-torture allegations, Hillier said the governor of Kandahar province also expressed frustration over the issue.

“Part of my discussion with the governor of Kandahar this afternoon was him articulating his frustrations to me at allegations being made here about his country, about his government, being accepted as straight fact back in Canada and taking the focus away from the incredible amount of good that’s been done here for millions of people to give them a more secure and stable lifestyle,” Hillier said.

Troops had a chance to have their pictures taken with the Stanley Cup. A ball hockey game between soldiers and the NHL stars will also get underway Thursday.

“It’s a tension-breaker, it’s a stress reliever,” said Hillier. “What’s most important is it’s a connection to Canada.”
 
Another post at The Torch, giving a Conference on Defence Associations' e-mail:

Afghan detainee agreement: Falsities in the press
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/afghan-detainee-agreement-falsities-in.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Human rights groups in court on detainee issue
Updated Thu. May. 3 2007 8:17 AM ET CTV.ca News Staff
Article Link

Amnesty International and the B.C. Civil Liberties Union will be in court today asking a federal judge to grant an injunction that would halt the transfer of Afghan detainees from Canadian custody to local authorities.

The Conservative government has been on the defensive after allegations surfaced that detainees were tortured after being released from Canadian care.

Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier signed the prisoner handover agreement back in 2005.

However, the deal has been criticized because it has no clause that allows Canada to follow up on the treatment of detainees handed over to the Afghan government.

Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day may have inadvertently helped the case of the human rights groups after he acknowledged Monday that Canadian correctional officers heard allegations of torture by Afghan officials.
More on link
 
Gen. Hillier was no loose cannon
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/gen-hillier-was-no-loose-cannon.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Canadian officer testifies abuse of one Afghan detainee reported to military
Mike Blanchfield and Andrew Mayeda, CanWest News Service
Published: Friday, May 04, 2007

OTTAWA - Afghan police beat up a prisoner given to them by the Canadian Forces, according to the first evidence of abuse of a detainee transferred by Canada to Afghanistan which emerged Thursday in documents filed in the Federal Court.

Col. Steve Noonan, a former task force commander in Afghanistan, disclosed the incident in a sworn affidavit filed with the court as part of the government's response to a legal challenge by Amnesty International Canada and the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association to stop all further transfers of detainees by the Canadian military to the Afghan government.

Noonan's disclosure comes after repeated denials by the Conservative government that it had no specific examples that any detainee transferred by Canadian troops to Afghan authorities was later subject to abuse or torture. The detainee issue has mushroomed into a major political problem for Prime Minister Stephen Harper and several of his Conservative cabinet ministers.

Harper continued Thursday to dismiss allegations of prisoner abuse and blamed his political opponents for making it an issue.

"This is based on nothing more than a handful of unsubstantiated allegations from Taliban prisoners and I think, quite frankly, it has detracted unnecessarily from the good work Canadian men and women are doing in the field in Afghanistan under dangerous circumstances," the prime minister told a news conference in Mission, B.C.

But court documents, including a transcript of Noonan's cross-examination earlier this week, already filed in Federal Court revealed that a prisoner captured by Canadian troops was abused by the Afghans.

"In this case, the CF learned that the detainee had been beaten by the local ANP," Noonan said in his affidavit, using the acronym for Afghan national police. "When we learned of this, they approached the local ANP and requested that the detainee be given to them."

The Afghans turned the prisoner over to the Canadians who then gave him to provincial Afghan police authorities.

When Amnesty lawyer Paul Champ tried to get more details on the incident - when it happened, what injuries were sustained, whether the Afghan police were charged - federal lawyer J. Sanderson Graham shut down all further questioning of the incident citing "national security" interests.

"It threatens Canada's national security to know when the Canadian Forces observed local Afghan national police beating a detainee that they transferred to that unit?" Champ asked.

"We object to any questions on this incident generally," Graham replied.

Citing reports by the U.S. State Department, the United Nations and Canada's Foreign Affairs Department, Amnesty and the civil liberties association have charged that detainees transferred by Canada to the Afghans are subject to torture in its prisons, and that the transfers should be halted. They also question why the military does not build its own prison camps for detainees.

In a surprise twist, Thursday's hearing was adjourned because court was told that the Canadian and Afghanistan governments had signed a revision of their prisoner transfer agreement earlier that morning.

Justice Michael Kelen announced the key details of the agreement that expands on the controversial December 2005 deal originally signed by Canada and Afghanistan.

Under Thursday's amended deal, Canadian officials will be granted unrestricted access to all Afghan prisons, where its prisoners are transferred, and they will be able to conduct private interviews with prisoners away from the eyes of their Afghan jailers.

"What happened this morning is a major development; it probably wouldn't have happened if this court case wasn't happening," Kelen said from the bench before adjourning the hearing.

The court challenge will continue at a yet-to-be-determined date, once lawyers from both sides have had a chance to cross-examine relevant witnesses on the amended agreement signed in Kabul.

Earlier this week, Champ grilled Noonan about why Canadian troops do not build their own prison camps in Afghanistan given that the military has a published manual that gives detailed instructions of how to do this.

Noonan said the military had a concern that running their own camps would force them to redirect large numbers of troops to running such a facility.

"The other concern that we do have is that without proper training, without experience in it, the execution of that may go wrong as has been evidenced in my understanding of - of, for example the Abu Ghraib situation," Noonan testified, referring to the scandal that rocked the U.S. military in Iraq three years ago over its abuse of inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison it operated in Baghdad.

"Our folks have not been exposed to, historically, nor have been for at least my generation to the holding of detainees or prisoners of war, either one, in our generation," Noonan added. "We don't know the risk - the lack of knowledge that we have in the actual conduct of it is significant."

Meanwhile, Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said Thursday the enhanced agreement with the Afghan government was better than the original version signed by the previous Liberal government in December 2005.

"We have done what was asked by others of Canadians. We are going to see that that is implemented by the Afghan government," MacKay said.

Senior Liberals downplayed their party's role in negotiating the original agreement to transfer detainees to Afghan authorities.

The Liberals said Thursday they have never denied crafting the original deal, which was signed in December 2005 by Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada's chief of the defence staff.

"The issue is not about what happened in 2005," said Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre.

He said the "embarrassment" over the issue has been caused by the Conservative government's failure to improve on the agreement and ensure the Geneva convention banning torture is respected.


Omar Samad, Afghanistan's ambassador to Canada, said Thursday's amendments now give Canadian officials more access to his county's prisons than any other NATO country.

Samad pledged that after being ravaged by a generation of war, Afghanistan would - with help of Canada and its allies - rebuild its institutions and get rid of systemic abuse in its prisons.

"This process has started - getting rid of lawful activities - and will continue," Samad said in an interview.

But the head of Amnesty International Canada said that the new deal did not go far enough to stop abuse in Afghan prisons.

"You don't prevent torture in country where it is rampant and systematic, as it is in Afghanistan, by sending in monitors on an occasional basis. It simply doesn't work," said Alex Neve.
Edit to emphasise a few lines.
 
For those who haven't yet seen it, the supplemental detainee transfer agreement is up on the web:

http://geo.international.gc.ca/cip-pic/afghanistan/pdf/agreement_detainees_030507.pdf

I've put up a brief post on the topic here:

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/revised-agreement.html
 
Afghan scandal flares over specific allegations

Updated Fri. May. 4 2007 12:08 PM ET

Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- The Conservative government's reprieve over allegations of prisoner abuse in Afghanistan was short-lived.

Over the last two weeks, at least five cabinet ministers have insisted that Canadian officials were not aware of "specific" reports of captured Taliban being abused after they were handed to Afghan authorities.

But testimony given by a senior military officer in Amnesty International's lawsuit - meant to stop the prisoner transfers - outlines a specific case.

All three opposition parties accused the Conservatives of misleading Canadians and demanded to know when the government became aware of the report.

This latest contradiction follows a statement by Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day earlier this week, who confirmed that correctional officers had received two reports of prisoner abuse.

In both instances, the government is refusing to release details of the incidents, claiming it might violate national security.
 
Looks like the drama is not going to end any time soon.
Afghan scandal flares over specific allegations
Updated Fri. May. 4 2007 6:28 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

...

Meanwhile, Amnesty International's legal proceedings were reportedly put on hold when the new agreement was signed, so that it could examine the new details.


However, the efforts were again underway after Amnesty examined the re-written agreement and said it still wasn't adequate and wouldn't prevent abuse.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070504/afghan_scandal_070504/20070504?hub=TopStories
 
 I can just hear it now, war crimes & prisoner torture because we put a sand bag over there head !
   We capture them, then turn them over to the Afghan authorities, then they are out of our hands !, it's the Afghan's country let them run it themselves !

    Chimo from outside the wire      :salute:
 
Just imagine the fieldday we'd have with the press if we started to operate our own prison in Afghanistan (or possibly Hann Island) The doogooders and rabble would have a field day with us cause we would be holding onto the detainees for an indefinite period... cause we would not have the authority to reintegrate these TB into Afghan society.....

A no win situation... just like a lawyer wants it.....
 
The incident involving Col. Noonan appears not a clear-cut as the media have been reporting:

Clarification
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/clarification.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
On Now....at the hour
 
Sunday Sound Off:
11am ET / 8am PT
Internet Viewing Link

This week, we want to know what you think. Join host Catherine Clark and her guests Col. Pat Stogran, Vice President of the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre and Amir Attaran, Professor of Law at the University of Ottawa, as we ask " How should Canada treat Afghan detainees?"

 
tounge in cheek here, Have Stephen Dion and Taliban Jack serve them drinks on the plane to Canada where we can coddle them in our prison.
The media needs to get with the program, it might be time to elect news people seeing as they are mouth pieces for the opposition anyways.

There now I feel better
 
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