Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Eye In The Sky]

Maritimes provinces: NB, NS and PEI

Atlantic provinces: NB, NS, NL and PEI

100%

Introduction - Atlantic Canada

Atlantic Canada includes the provinces of New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island (Figure 1a, b).

natural-resources.canada.ca

You’ll hear people say “I’m a Maritimer/Caper/Newfie/Islander”. I’ve never heard anyone in my life (said in my Islander accent) call themselves an Atlanticer.

 

[CBH99]

What are the chances of that happening?

I hope zero.

Policing isn't the same as Emergency Medicine, where it absolutely makes sense to have an established knowledge base that takes approximately 'X' amountof time to learn & practice in a classroom/field setting.

We have applicants that come from all kinds of economic, social, cultural, and work backgrounds - hiring the right mix of that is what can potentially give police services some real advantages when dealing with a variety of unique situations.

Former long haul truck driver is going to know where to look to see if a truck is road worthy. Someone who speaks Punjab will have infinitely more success when conversing with citizens who prefer to speak that language. Someone who worked in a morgue for a few years will know all kinds of quirky little things about dead bodies that could prove extremely valuable in certain investigations. Etc etc

By creating a requirement for all new applicants to have a 3 year degree, regardless of their life experience & personal qualities, we would drastically slash the number of potentially interested applicants...and the number of good applicants walking in the door these days is LOOOOOWWWWW.

Plus with Depot, you get a consistency in the training each new constable receives. If you have new constables starting to work patrol that come from 2-3 college style institutions, there will be some element of inconsistency as a result, somewhere.

Not to say anything of the HUGE amounts of policing experience the RCMP Depot instructors bring to the table, and how much that personal experience greatly improves the quality of officers as an end result.

Textbooks alone can't tell you about the time they went on this type of call and X, Y, or Z happened.

And finally, it would be a catastrophic blow to institutional pride. Every RCMP officer knows that every other RCMP officer has 'been there, done that' in Depot.

The traditions have been long established, posting 'pathway' throughout career is generally well understood and followed, and pride in the history of the organization & reputation of the organization is more or less shared by its members.

Removing any of that from the RCMP culture is a horrible idea, I can't stress that enough.




I think the Commission is out to lunch personally, and there's a good chance it was being ran by a stupid person. (If current government trends remained consistent)

How would a 3 year degree have helped one little bit when this situation started to happen?

 

[BrianWL]

Are his friends and others who provided ammo being investigated?

On December 4, Wortman's spouse, her older brother, and a brother-in-law were charged with providing Wortman ammunition that he used in the attacks. The spouse was believed to have transferred .223 Remington and .40 Smith & Wesson cartridges, all of them purchased in Nova Scotia, between March 17 and April 18, 2020. However, the RCMP acknowledged that the three cooperated in the investigation and had "no prior knowledge" of Wortman's actions. Their arraignment was scheduled for January 27, 2021.[5][116][117] On that day, the cases were adjourned until March 9, 2021.[118]

 

[Remius]

I hope zero.

Policing isn't the same as Emergency Medicine, where it absolutely makes sense to have an established knowledge base that takes approximately 'X' amountof time to learn & practice in a classroom/field setting.

We have applicants that come from all kinds of economic, social, cultural, and work backgrounds - hiring the right mix of that is what can potentially give police services some real advantages when dealing with a variety of unique situations.

Former long haul truck driver is going to know where to look to see if a truck is road worthy. Someone who speaks Punjab will have infinitely more success when conversing with citizens who prefer to speak that language. Someone who worked in a morgue for a few years will know all kinds of quirky little things about dead bodies that could prove extremely valuable in certain investigations. Etc etc

By creating a requirement for all new applicants to have a 3 year degree, regardless of their life experience & personal qualities, we would drastically slash the number of potentially interested applicants...and the number of good applicants walking in the door these days is LOOOOOWWWWW.

Plus with Depot, you get a consistency in the training each new constable receives. If you have new constables starting to work patrol that come from 2-3 college style institutions, there will be some element of inconsistency as a result, somewhere.

Not to say anything of the HUGE amounts of policing experience the RCMP Depot instructors bring to the table, and how much that personal experience greatly improves the quality of officers as an end result.

Textbooks alone can't tell you about the time they went on this type of call and X, Y, or Z happened.

And finally, it would be a catastrophic blow to institutional pride. Every RCMP officer knows that every other RCMP officer has 'been there, done that' in Depot.

The traditions have been long established, posting 'pathway' throughout career is generally well understood and followed, and pride in the history of the organization & reputation of the organization is more or less shared by its members.

Removing any of that from the RCMP culture is a horrible idea, I can't stress that enough.




I think the Commission is out to lunch personally, and there's a good chance it was being ran by a stupid person. (If current government trends remained consistent)

How would a 3 year degree have helped one little bit when this situation started to happen?

The UK has an interesting police entry model. A degreed entry plan, direct entry plan, an apprenticeship style entry plan And some sort of hybrid entry plan I believe.

 

[BrianWL]

I hope zero.

Policing isn't the same as Emergency Medicine, where it absolutely makes sense to have an established knowledge base that takes approximately 'X' amountof time to learn & practice in a classroom/field setting.

We have applicants that come from all kinds of economic, social, cultural, and work backgrounds - hiring the right mix of that is what can potentially give police services some real advantages when dealing with a variety of unique situations.

Former long haul truck driver is going to know where to look to see if a truck is road worthy. Someone who speaks Punjab will have infinitely more success when conversing with citizens who prefer to speak that language. Someone who worked in a morgue for a few years will know all kinds of quirky little things about dead bodies that could prove extremely valuable in certain investigations. Etc etc

By creating a requirement for all new applicants to have a 3 year degree, regardless of their life experience & personal qualities, we would drastically slash the number of potentially interested applicants...and the number of good applicants walking in the door these days is LOOOOOWWWWW.

Plus with Depot, you get a consistency in the training each new constable receives. If you have new constables starting to work patrol that come from 2-3 college style institutions, there will be some element of inconsistency as a result, somewhere.

Not to say anything of the HUGE amounts of policing experience the RCMP Depot instructors bring to the table, and how much that personal experience greatly improves the quality of officers as an end result.

Textbooks alone can't tell you about the time they went on this type of call and X, Y, or Z happened.

And finally, it would be a catastrophic blow to institutional pride. Every RCMP officer knows that every other RCMP officer has 'been there, done that' in Depot.

The traditions have been long established, posting 'pathway' throughout career is generally well understood and followed, and pride in the history of the organization & reputation of the organization is more or less shared by its members.

Removing any of that from the RCMP culture is a horrible idea, I can't stress that enough.




I think the Commission is out to lunch personally, and there's a good chance it was being ran by a stupid person. (If current government trends remained consistent)

How would a 3 year degree have helped one little bit when this situation started to happen?

The UK has an interesting police entry model. A degreed entry plan, direct entry plan, an apprenticeship style entry plan And some sort of hybrid entry plan I believe.

think thats not a bad way of doing it. if a fella or gal wishes only to be a Constable/Corporal for their career - there's no need for them to obtain a Doctorate vs. someone who wants to be a Chief or Commissioner - should have the appropriate academic credentials. without changing a thing, many of the officers come with varying levels of education. but its not required to do the basics of police work, high school and some life experience is just fine.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Here in Quebec, the current model has police candidates graduate from a "police technique" three years community college course followed by a compulsory 15 weeks practical course taught at the National Policing School. They can then go on as Apprentice Police Officers into any police force in the province.

As for models, I prefer the French system. It splits the "uniformed" force from the "investigative" one. After Lycee (a bit more than our high schools), they can enter the Gendarmerie or the Surete as entry police officers and remain for there whole career in the uniformed service. Completely separate (but obviously working with, as required), you have the "Judicial Police" (Police judiciaire), composed of the investigators and scientific police (our crime labs) who do all investigating of crimes, other than minor ones. These people must have a university degree before entering as apprentice investigators. They are never part of the Gendarmerie or Surete (Sorry, but Inspector Clouseau was not of the Surete)

Personnaly, I like the split because it means that, when the uniformed officers are involved in situations causing injuries or death, they are investigated by a group that has no conflict of interest - having nothing to lose or gain in protecting anyone from the consequences of their actions.

BTW, one of the recommendation/finding of the investigation I noted was the "lack of geographical knowledge" of the RCMP in that area. Seems to me that perhaps the RCMP should reconsider its policy of not letting its officers serve in their province of origin for the firts, I believe at this time it is ten years.

 

[brihard]

BTW, one of the recommendation/finding of the investigation I noted was the "lack of geographical knowledge" of the RCMP in that area. Seems to me that perhaps the RCMP should reconsider its policy of not letting its officers serve in their province of origin for the firts, I believe at this time it is ten years.

No, that policy is long gone. I’ve seen a number of RCMP ads for both new recruits and lateral applicants where if you join from ‘X’ division, you’ll stay in ‘X’ division of you want. They probably realized that was a policy that would drive away some applicants who would like to return to their home province.

But also, really think of what this degree of local knowledge entails. Basically it’s faulting members for not knowing of the existence of a black track they would never have cause to use and that’s not marked on a map.

A rural police detachment covers a large area. I found the Colchester County RCMP boundaries:



That’s a big friggin’ area to know intimately. Police spend most of their time either attending calls or following up on investigations, which will take them to specific areas. Will there be some quiet shifts with some time to explore? Sure, probably a bit. But you don’t want to pull yourself too far away from main roads or areas more likely to receive a call. You don’t want to be too far away when your colleague needs backup.

This is the kind of granular local knowledge that comes from living in a specific community, not living in the same province. It wouldn’t be realistic to expect of people not from the area, or particularly from the (many) backup officers arriving from their own external detachments.

I believe there was a failure to pass up local knowledge from civilians when it became available, but I don’t think it’s a failing that police in a large rural area don’t know about a particular secluded black track at the back end of a small community they’d seldom have cause to go to.

 

[OldSolduer]

On December 4, Wortman's spouse, her older brother, and a brother-in-law were charged with providing Wortman ammunition that he used in the attacks. The spouse was believed to have transferred .223 Remington and .40 Smith & Wesson cartridges, all of them purchased in Nova Scotia, between March 17 and April 18, 2020. However, the RCMP acknowledged that the three cooperated in the investigation and had "no prior knowledge" of Wortman's actions. Their arraignment was scheduled for January 27, 2021.[5][116][117] On that day, the cases were adjourned until March 9, 2021.[118]

Thank you. I reckon they won’t get much in the way of a sentence. Just my opinion.

This guy had red flags everywhere as did the guy in Mayerthorpe. Those guys don’t just “snap” like some believe. They’ve been unstable for a long time

 

[Haggis]

Thank you. I reckon they won’t get much in the way of a sentence. Just my opinion.

This guy had red flags everywhere as did the guy in Mayerthorpe. Those guys don’t just “snap” like some believe. They’ve been unstable for a long time

The RCMP charged the perpetrator's spouse, her brother and brother-in-law with unlawfully transferring the killer ammunition, after they provided him with .223-calibre Remington cartridges and .40-calibre Smith and Wesson cartridges.

Police acknowledged at the time that the three had no knowledge of what the gunman would do, and the Crown withdrew the charges after the trio participated in a restorative justice program.

 

[BrianWL]

Thank you. I reckon they won’t get much in the way of a sentence. Just my opinion.

This guy had red flags everywhere as did the guy in Mayerthorpe. Those guys don’t just “snap” like some believe. They’ve been unstable for a long time

You are correct, problem is the red flags aren't necessarily actions by the perpetrators, that can get them locked up. perhaps if more investigation is conducted, surveillance and so on, but the number of red flag people far outnumbers the resources to track them proactively. so choices have to be made on who's going to get looked at or not.

 

[brihard]

You are correct, problem is the red flags aren't necessarily actions by the perpetrators, that can get them locked up. perhaps if more investigation is conducted, surveillance and so on, but the number of red flag people far outnumbers the resources to track them proactively. so choices have to be made on who's going to get looked at or not.

Mm hm. There can be lots of data points that add up to ‘red flags’, but that fall well short of the legal grounds Police would need to search and seize firearms. (I’m commenting generally. I don’t have the info to say whether grounds would at some point have existed to get a warrant to search Wortman’s property and seize firearms).

 

[kratz]

We live slightly north of that red mark. on the map.

A rural police detachment covers a large area. I found the Colchester County RCMP boundaries:

View attachment 77084

 

[brihard]

We live slightly north of that red mark. on the map.

What’s your take on that particular recommendation? Is it at all realistic to think that police working that county’s detachment could be expected to get that level of familiarity with all the small villages and their backroads?

 

[OldSolduer]

You are correct, problem is the red flags aren't necessarily actions by the perpetrators, that can get them locked up. perhaps if more investigation is conducted, surveillance and so on, but the number of red flag people far outnumbers the resources to track them proactively. so choices have to be made on who's going to get looked at or not.

I understand- it’s a balancing act isn’t it? Plus lack of resources.

 

[brihard]

I understand- it’s a balancing act isn’t it? Plus lack of resources.

VERY much so. Any proactive investigation like that can be time consuming. It’s one thing if assigned to (and triaged) by a dedicated investigative unit; much harder if left to the abilities and available time of members on the road trying to run files between calls. I lived that life earlier in my service and it ain’t easy to get the work done. Unfortunately there are also a LOT of weird people with lots of red flags, few of whom will likely ever truly be a threat, so knowing who to dedicate scarce resources to is hard. Any such proactive investigation necessarily comes at the expense of dedicating investigating time and resources to crimes already committed and resources. I remember semi-regularly writing workable files off with “insufficient time resources to address this”.

 

[Booter]

for every guy with “red flags” there are a thousand others that have the same red flags and never boil over. It’s only with hindsight that we re like “look at all the signs”. Every rural area has two or three of these “types”. Most nothing ever comes up with it.

Consistent reaction and consequence to breaking the law is the only way to catch them if even that works- we haven’t tried it. Trying to identify the kooks that will boil over is not a useful endeavour- you’ll just start catching up all the other outliers.

I can’t think of any rural place I’ve done this work that doesn’t have two of these people.

There would be more resources if we nailed people that repeatedly broke the law.

 

[mariomike]

Will there be any civil, or class-action lawsuits, against the estate, or any agencies, as a result of this recently released Report?

May be too soon to ask.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Mm hm. There can be lots of data points that add up to ‘red flags’, but that fall well short of the legal grounds Police would need to search and seize firearms. (I’m commenting generally. I don’t have the info to say whether grounds would at some point have existed to get a warrant to search Wortman’s property and seize firearms).

I think I read earlier he was banned from owning / possessing firearms. If someone reported they’d seen a firearm in his house or on his property, would that be enough?

 

[Booter]

Presently in the prairies? No. Specifics- time, date, storage may give you the grounds you need for the warrant but if the information would identify the person who saw it- it won’t be granted. Even if the person providing the information doesn’t care if they’re identified. A lot of those types of tips are “anonymous” too which isn’t worth battery power consumed to call or send the message. It’s not totally worth zero- but it’s basically worth zero.

It “could” but it’s not a yes/no kinda detail. Some of it even depends on the judge/JJP who reviews it- it’s more subjective than objective.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What’s your take on that particular recommendation? Is it at all realistic to think that police working that county’s detachment could be expected to get that level of familiarity with all the small villages and their backroads?

I know the area fairly well where it started, ended and spread out to (Shubie etc).

My level of famil is from hiking, geocaching, fishing etc and travelling back and forth to the Island.

I’d say “no” and add in the initial responders would have no bloody idea where the shooter had gone. It’s a short (15-20km) drive to the Trans-Canada if you stay on the MSR. From there…anyone’s guess.