Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Remius]

What are the chances of that happening?

Universities and colleges will be all over that.

 

[Booter]

What are the chances of that happening?

I just don’t see it. I could see a movement to probation period being increased. Maybe some mandatory courses- distance based.

But I also don’t want to see it. I think it’s a massive move in the wrong direction.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I just don’t see it. I could see a movement to probation period being increased. Maybe some mandatory courses- distance based.

But I also don’t want to see it. I think it’s a massive move in the wrong direction.

Definitely not disagreeing with you, but how do you see it as a massive move the wrong direction ?

For context, I think we over play the value of university degrees, and I think that most professions don't actually need them, but Universities are now big business more than higher education IMHO.

 

[Booter]

I’ve always held that police work is dirty blue collar work that needs practical people on the frontlines with strong support professionals (who should have good educations.)

College diplomas as an application prerequisite to apply would be fine. 2 years in school. Then apply. 6 months in the academy.

3 years of hypothetical learning without practical context isn’t going to be retained.

Think about a degree you obtained 15 years ago. How much do you “remember”. Post secondary has lots of benefits- in theory teaching critical thinking, in theory- how to research, how to write how to listen.

I have spent years in the most practical applications of police work in the most violent places in Canada. Education isn’t what the young people I had along with me needed- they needed strong support and logistics.

Cop work is getting increasingly technical- even the paper portion. I wont deny that. That’s where strong support staff and steady hands on the movement and comprehensiveness of documentation is needed.

The degree also wouldn’t have stopped the burnout behaviour in this particular instance associated to domestic violence. That rests solely on the court system- and by extension polticians.

Arresting and creating “restraining orders” on abusers- revoking their firearms licences blah blah blah only works if there is repercussions for stepping out of bounds.

I am comfortable saying that every spouse this week that is arrested in my very large area for uttering threats against their spouse- even with a massive criminal record will be released within hours. I’d bet my life on it quite comfortably,

My people spending time in school wouldn’t fix that. So it’s just another ridiculous suggestion from an out of touch Canadian inquiry.

Years ago there was a cell death inquiry I was adjacent to- the person died in cells after a doctor cleared them to be lodged. The inquiry said the police needed more medical training in assessing drunk people- despite their condition being cleared by a medical doctor.

Canadian inquiries are of limited use for anything other than floggings.

Now that said- I am a dinosaur and I may be philosophically aging out of the organization because I am out of touch with where the boat is rowing.

When I look at this incident. Then the recommendations- like the three degree (but making sure it’s accessible to diverse people and genders) it makes me cynical of the goals or understanding of the participants.

Diversity is an important recruitment goal. It is a worthy goal, there are systemic barriers in recruitment that need addressing.

Its particular applicability here is what raises an eyebrow.

The solution for large geography, too few cops, and bad coordination is not a system that produces less cops less often.

Inquiries are more successful when they’re focussed narrowly. Being too broad like this one where they go back years and tackle several levels of behaviour and incident makes it all muddy.

If we look at the reduction of mandatory minimums, the increase in vacancy and inability to recruit, and the backlogs in courts- we are actually in a position where there is hypothetically less chance that we would deal with this type of person earlier rather than too late. We were better off before this event that we would deal with wortman early than we are today. That’s completely based on nothing but my own dumb ideas but…

 

[Good2Golf]

The Maritimes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Learned a new thing. I thought ‘lobster = maritime’




That said, a good friend of mine was OPP for years and years then transferred to the RNC when his wife’s job took them to St.John’s. He always says, ‘Lord tunnerin’ b’y! If we can do it, they (NS/NB/PEI) should be able to get’er done.’

 

[mariomike]

Some interesting pan-policing recommendations in there such as adopting a three year bachelor’s degree model for police recruits, where police training is integrated within the degree (Finland’s model).

Replied here, to keep this topic ASHE related.

Education in Emergency Services

Saw this in a ASHE thread. When I read the federal Mass Casualty Commission recommended "a three-year degree-based model of police education for all police services in Canada", it reminded me of how seriously the Province of Ontario emergency services took a report, and the mandate that...

army.ca

 

[lenaitch]

Would the Maritimes ever make a regional police force? The three provinces tend to work together in many ways. There is/was an agreement by the three provinces to use the Atlantic Police Academy in Summerside for their training.

Having a maritime vs provincial police service would allow for larger buying power and some services like the lab and aircraft could be centralized to save money.

I don't think any of the maritime provinces could afford their own provincial police.

I'm not exactly sure how replacing one rurally-deployed, low-density police service with another would make responding to an incident like this any better.

A multiple-province police service might have more "buying power" than a single province, but no where near that of the federal government; it's more a matter of will and priorities.

I'm also not seeing how having every copper with a sheepskin on their wall would have made the response to this incident any better but, admittedly, I'm only going on my media following and haven't read the report. I'll leave that for the other thread created.

A while ago I was part of conversation on radio infrastructure for two provinces out that way. They were looking at upgrading a network. Trying to do it possibly as a set so they had some interoperability.

They were provided a cost to make a network together, and one to go
On their own.

One province- who had multiple identified issues. Like they were living in the Stone Age. they had initiated the feasibility study because they knew there was a massive risk in their coms- at the end selected “do nothing” and the idea collapsed. Too expensive.

Ontario is in the midst of upgrading its public safety radio network (OPP, rural fire [optional] land ambulance, MTO Ops, Corrections transport, MNRF enforcement). The network (towers, links, backhaul, call centres, etc.) is already in place; it's an upgrade to add encryption and data capacity. I don't know how the land mass of the combined Maritime provinces compares to the non-remote area of Ontario, but the price tag is about $1Bn.

 

[lenaitch]

That said, a good friend of mine was OPP for years and years then transferred to the RNC when his wife’s job took them to St.John’s. He always says, ‘Lord tunnerin’ b’y! If we can do it, they (NS/NB/PEI) should be able to get’er done.’

Keep in mind that the RNC is essentially a 3-region police service; greater St. John's, Cornerbrook and Churchill Falls/Labrador City.

 

[OldSolduer]

The report came out and it recommended all handguns and semi automatic weapons be banned. There is 130 recommendations.

 

[Booter]

The report came out and it recommended all handguns and semi automatic weapons be banned. There is 130 recommendations.

The firearms ones were a little aggressive, again- targeting legal handguns and semis in this case doesn’t really seem applicable

 

[OldSolduer]

The firearms ones were a little aggressive, again- targeting legal handguns and semis in this case doesn’t really seem applicable

All his firearms were illegally obtained I believe

 

[Booter]

All his firearms were illegally obtained I believe

My understanding as well. But I’ll be totally honest I didn’t dig into it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My understanding as well. But I’ll be totally honest I didn’t dig into it.

It's true. He was prohibited from owning firearms. Smuggled some in from the USA and has friends and family buy him ammo and accessories.

And he took weapons from LEOs he killed.

 

[brihard]

It's true. He was prohibited from owning firearms. Smuggled some in from the USA and has friends and family buy him ammo and accessories.

And he took weapons from LEOs he killed.

One police officer killed, and he took her pistol- that was the only police weapon he had.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One police officer killed, and he took her pistol- that was the only police weapon he had.

I thought he took a rifle too. Could be wrong.

 

[brihard]

I thought he took a rifle too. Could be wrong.

No. He had an AR, but it wasn’t taken from police. I remember reading that Heidi Stevenson wasn’t carbine trained.

 

[Booter]

No. He had an AR, but it wasn’t taken from police. I remember reading that Heidi Stevenson wasn’t carbine trained.

This is true

 

[OldSolduer]

It's true. He was prohibited from owning firearms. Smuggled some in from the USA and has friends and family buy him ammo and accessories.

And he took weapons from LEOs he killed.

Are his friends and others who provided ammo being investigated?

 

[BrianWL]

Sounds familiar.

Since 1975,

What are the chances of that happening?

depends on the model used, the commission talks about Finland's approach. This would mean paying recruits for their 3 year degree course, which is a lot longer than the current model and depending on costing - would be more expensive if mirrored from the Finns. I am advised by a Finnish colleague the problem they are having is some of the new officers are quitting early on after obtaining their degree, paid out of the taxpayers pocket. What was not addressed by the commission was that most recruits come to police college with at least a 2 year college diploma or more. So if you take on a kid with her 2 year education, send them for another 6 months to 1 year of training (agency dependent) you are turning out a person who actually has 2.5 to 3 years of academics, depending on the individual. and the school obtained prior to landing at the training academy is out of the recruits pocket.....not the taxpayer. for my job, generally speaking - the only folks we take on with high school only - are veterans - who are on the whole - excellent cops with a ton of training/discipline and in some cases operational experience. super valuable and something Ontario was talking about disallowing ie) no diploma/degree - not getting hired. I hope this never happens as some of the finest officers Ive worked with started out with the CAF.

 

[BrianWL]

Are his friends and others who provided ammo being investigated?

seem to recall some associates getting jammed up criminally shortly after the massacre......