Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Good2Golf]

It’s a single Captain whose background is likely a single tour at a SAR unit, and a member of the CCG. And depending what else is going on in the SRR they may be completely overwhelmed with their actual jobs, or they may have lots of time to try to puzzle through what to do with this. Sometimes there’s an assistant, usually that would be a Sgt with a SAR background

Ack this, @kev994. My institutional angst really is at the CAOC, once JRCC passed it up. CAOC is tied in to all ACCEs across the country. A DO Captain there has less excuse for not appreciating things…especially as they’re the rep on the Duty Watch for Comd 1 CAD/CANR…

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

It’s a single Captain whose background is likely a single tour at a SAR unit, and a member of the CCG. And depending what else is going on in the SRR they may be completely overwhelmed with their actual jobs, or they may have lots of time to try to puzzle through what to do with this. Sometimes there’s an assistant, usually that would be a Sgt with a SAR background

And there is probably one bird active for the entire East Coast.

"Sorry Mr Prime Minister, Hibernia is on fire and there are a bucket load of trapped workers but our one bird was busy helping the Province with a Law Enforcement Activity that isn't even our mandate"

It's not the JRCC's job to cover for Provincial or Federal Law Enforcement deficiencies.

 

[kev994]

And there is probably one bird active for the entire East Coast.

"Sorry Mr Prime Minister, Hibernia is on fire and there are a bucket load of trapped workers but our one bird was busy helping the Province with a Law Enforcement Activity that isn't even our mandate"

It's not the JRCC's job to cover for Provincial or Federal Law Enforcement deficiencies.

Best case there’s a Corm in each Greenwood and Gander, and a Herc in Greenwood. Unless one of them is broken, or on another mission.

 

[brihard]

It was the weekend, and the one person who knows what they're doing had shut off their phone?

It’s a single Captain whose background is likely a single tour at a SAR unit, and a member of the CCG. And depending what else is going on in the SRR they may be completely overwhelmed with their actual jobs, or they may have lots of time to try to puzzle through what to do with this. Sometimes there’s an assistant, usually that would be a Sgt with a SAR background

The “overnight on a weekend” factor definitely shouldn’t be underestimated. And safe to guess most RCAF will never have had to take a call requesting help for an active shooter, so the “WTF?” factor would also be high. I’m also cognizant that a working theory the first night was that he had either hunkered down or killed himself. It was early the next day that the scale started to become apparent, and killings resumed. So- safe bet that RCAF at the time of the request also had little external info, and would have had no prompt that an ask was potentially going to be coming in from law enforcement.

I hope that, in the wake of this, larger police services have planned out a faster process to make an accurate and appropriately directed request to CAF for stuff like helicopter assistance. Hopefully CAF offices who police might know to call are in a better position to turn “I don’t know” into “I know who to call”.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Best case there’s a Corm in each Greenwood and Gander, and a Herc in Greenwood. Unless one of them is broken, or on another mission.

Yep and we all know what "best case" means

 

[kev994]

Yep and we all know what "best case" means

Oh yeah, and they’re covering Nunavut too.

 

[CBH99]

The “overnight on a weekend” factor definitely shouldn’t be underestimated. And safe to guess most RCAF will never have had to take a call requesting help for an active shooter, so the “WTF?” factor would also be high. I’m also cognizant that a working theory the first night was that he had either hunkered down or killed himself. It was early the next day that the scale started to become apparent, and killings resumed. So- safe bet that RCAF at the time of the request also had little external info, and would have had no prompt that an ask was potentially going to be coming in from law enforcement.

I hope that, in the wake of this, larger police services have planned out a faster process to make an accurate and appropriately directed request to CAF for stuff like helicopter assistance. Hopefully CAF offices who police might know to call are in a better position to turn “I don’t know” into “I know who to call”.

Totally agreed. Part of that would come from an informal yet work related meet & greet between local law enforcement leadership & local military leadership. (Squadron commanders & base commanders)

know that with EPS, if a shift Sgt needs more than 1 air asset, the Sgt covering EPS dispatch on any given shift has a direct number for the Duty Officer at 408 Sqn

(At least that’s was the case, a few years back. I don’t see any reason why that would have changed)

The request for air support usually comes after dark, so maintenance is done during daytime hours. EPS tries to keep only 1 bird airborne at a time. Hot refuelling is common to get that ISR asset back overhead as quickly as possible, while the other helo is held in reserve.

If the need arises that there is more than 1 incident that urgently requires ISR (not what EPS calls it, but it is what it is) and the other bird isn’t available, the scene commander can coordinate a CAF asset in a fairly streamlined process.



I don’t think many other municipal police agencies have this ability, it’s just that CFB Edmonton happens to have a Griffon Sqn, and is located just north of the city.

(We almost had this very scenario play out last summer when we had a guy w/ a firearm hiding out in a large field just outside of town, needed a spotlight or thermal from above, and Air 1 was already deployed on another call.)

 

[kev994]

Totally agreed. Part of that would come from an informal yet work related meet & greet between local law enforcement leadership & local military leadership. (Squadron commanders & base commanders)

know that with EPS, if a shift Sgt needs more than 1 air asset, the Sgt covering EPS dispatch on any given shift has a direct number for the Duty Officer at 408 Sqn

(At least that’s was the case, a few years back. I don’t see any reason why that would have changed)

The request for air support usually comes after dark, so maintenance is done during daytime hours. EPS tries to keep only 1 bird airborne at a time. Hot refuelling is common to get that ISR asset back overhead as quickly as possible, while the other helo is held in reserve.

If the need arises that there is more than 1 incident that urgently requires ISR (not what EPS calls it, but it is what it is) and the other bird isn’t available, the scene commander can coordinate a CAF asset in a fairly streamlined process.



I don’t think many other municipal police agencies have this ability, it’s just that CFB Edmonton happens to have a Griffon Sqn, and is located just north of the city.

(We almost had this very scenario play out last summer when we had a guy w/ a firearm hiding out in a large field just outside of town, needed a spotlight or thermal from above, and Air 1 was already deployed on another call.)

I’ve seen this sort of thing play out too; we did an exercise with STARS, then a week later they couldn’t get into an area but recognized that we could parachute in and clear an LZ. They called the guy who organized our participation in the exercise, he gave them JRCCs number, this was something that JRCC would be accustomed to dealing with.

 

[Booter]

Totally agreed. Part of that would come from an informal yet work related meet & greet between local law enforcement leadership & local military leadership. (Squadron commanders & base commanders)

know that with EPS, if a shift Sgt needs more than 1 air asset, the Sgt covering EPS dispatch on any given shift has a direct number for the Duty Officer at 408 Sqn

(At least that’s was the case, a few years back. I don’t see any reason why that would have changed)

The request for air support usually comes after dark, so maintenance is done during daytime hours. EPS tries to keep only 1 bird airborne at a time. Hot refuelling is common to get that ISR asset back overhead as quickly as possible, while the other helo is held in reserve.

If the need arises that there is more than 1 incident that urgently requires ISR (not what EPS calls it, but it is what it is) and the other bird isn’t available, the scene commander can coordinate a CAF asset in a fairly streamlined process.



I don’t think many other municipal police agencies have this ability, it’s just that CFB Edmonton happens to have a Griffon Sqn, and is located just north of the city.

(We almost had this very scenario play out last summer when we had a guy w/ a firearm hiding out in a large field just outside of town, needed a spotlight or thermal from above, and Air 1 was already deployed on another call.)

I used the EPS and RCMP air assets on calls- it was very easy. And the duty officer for the city had the ability to connect with the CF base- I didn’t. It was easier to task through EPS- we had a whole parallel process that was painful, with EPS they just made calls.

It was similar using some other specialized capabilities. I could use an EPS asset with a phone call…or endure the bureaucracy.

The RCMP isn’t allowed those types of informal agreements and practical responses.

Our air logistics and transport is the number one chokepoint on all our special functions. Even beyond staffing issues. 8 guys I can project across a province well beats 16 I can’t.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It’s a single Captain whose background is likely a single tour at a SAR unit, and a member of the CCG. And depending what else is going on in the SRR they may be completely overwhelmed with their actual jobs, or they may have lots of time to try to puzzle through what to do with this. Sometimes there’s an assistant, usually that would be a Sgt with a SAR background

I'd assume that's what the 'big SOP binder' is for - informing the watchkeeper on 'the drill' for various scenarios, no matter what personal experience they happen to have.

 

[brihard]

I'd assume that's what the 'big SOP binder' is for - informing the watchkeeper on 'the drill' for various scenarios, no matter what personal experience they happen to have.

Problem is it probably literally is in a binder and thus hasn’t been updated since 2007.

 

[CBH99]

Problem is it probably literally is in a binder and thus hasn’t been updated since 2007.

Was just about to say almost this exact thing.

It probably hasn’t been updated in years, contact info & who to call is all outdated, and it’s a ‘big’ SOP binder rather than a streamlined one.

I think most of us can agree that the bulk of what’s in that binder hasn’t been read by anybody really.



Keeping key contact info at the front, current, and highly visible would make those binders a lot more helpful.

 

[Good2Golf]

I don’t think many other municipal police agencies have this ability, it’s just that CFB Edmonton happens to have a Griffon Sqn, and is located just north of the city.

Pembroke OPP probably still has some helo sqns on speed dial…it helped in the past. The sqns were quite capable of quickly backtracking to 1 Wing and the CAOC to follow-up after initial actions were coordinated with LE.

 

[lenaitch]

Pembroke OPP probably still has some helo sqns on speed dial…it helped in the past. The sqns were quite capable of quickly backtracking to 1 Wing and the CAOC to follow-up after initial actions were coordinated with LE.

Unless things have changed since I left (which is quite a while ago), I doubt it. Having an individual detachment commander who just happens to be next door to a military base with 'special access' makes little sense. If Killaloe or Lanark are the ones in need, it would make little sense that they be left out or have to go through another detachment. There are protocols for requesting CAF either via the regional of GHQ duty officer and, as far as I know, there are standing agreements. Trenton SAR has often been requested to assist in inland search and rescue incidents. I also recall a few years ago where SAR plucked a worker off a crane which was over a building on fire (City of Kingston?). Maybe it just a matter of sorting things out beforehand - planning.

 

[Good2Golf]

Unless things have changed since I left (which is quite a while ago), I doubt it. Having an individual detachment commander who just happens to be next door to a military base with 'special access' makes little sense. If Killaloe or Lanark are the ones in need, it would make little sense that they be left out or have to go through another detachment. There are protocols for requesting CAF either via the regional of GHQ duty officer and, as far as I know, there are standing agreements. Trenton SAR has often been requested to assist in inland search and rescue incidents. I also recall a few years ago where SAR plucked a worker off a crane which was over a building on fire (City of Kingston?). Maybe it just a matter of sorting things out beforehand - planning.

Maybe it atrophied…but there was a day when a Maj and an Insp had each other on speed dial due to happenstance, and in at least one case it made a serious difference to some people who might not otherwise be around today. It wasn’t about trying to have something that Lanark, or Killaloe, or Kaladar, or Arnprior, or somewhere else couldn’t have, but about mutually appreciating and communicating to help when it counted. Folks made sure that the full process was followed…in due course.

 

[RangerRay]

In Winnipeg, the city police has its own helicopter. A fantastic asset that helps in ways other departments could only dream of. I don’t know how many lives it’s saved just in being able to call off pursuits. Yet there are many on council and always at least one “progressive” mayoral candidate that wants to get rid of the helicopter for reasons.

 

[Booter]

Maybe it atrophied…but there was a day when a Maj and an Insp had each other on speed dial due to happenstance, and in at least one case it made a serious difference to some people who might not otherwise be around today. It wasn’t about trying to have something that Lanark, or Killaloe, or Kaladar, or Arnprior, or somewhere else couldn’t have, but about mutually appreciating and communicating to help when it counted. Folks made sure that the full process was followed…in due course.

Good relationships with useful neighbours don’t always need to be advertised

 

[Good2Golf]

Good relationships with useful neighbours don’t always need to be advertised

I do know that other nearby Dets were put in contact if they needed help that the Sqn could help - to be clear, Pembroke wasn’t trying to pull any ‘we’re special and have something you don’t’ on the other surrounding Dets.

 

[CBH99]

In Winnipeg, the city police has its own helicopter. A fantastic asset that helps in ways other departments could only dream of. I don’t know how many lives it’s saved just in being able to call off pursuits. Yet there are many on council and always at least one “progressive” mayoral candidate that wants to get rid of the helicopter for reasons.

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That's okay, let some silly politician make an idiot of himself. Politicians tend to like being reelected - let the facts & dynamics of such a decision make themselves known.

No units available because there are a few shadowing a suspect vehicle, or setting up a takedown because the helo isn't around to assist?

Civilian casualty that may have been preventable if something was flying through the air instead of driving through intersections?

Have a situation like ours where we enter a huge field with an active shooter hiding in the tall vegetation, rather than having a helicopter flying high above & finding them on a screen?


Unless someone is even somewhat experienced in a field, if they are in public office they should STFU really...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Best case there’s a Corm in each Greenwood and Gander, and a Herc in Greenwood. Unless one of them is broken, or on another mission.

Greenwood is also mandated 1 x Ready Aurora with operational crew, 24/7/365. Our normal Ready posture is quite a bit longer than SAR on the weekends, but we generally react to quick launch recalls like SAR with about 2 hours from call to wheels in the wells.

I’ve been on crews that have been re-tasked airborne to SAR, and on Standby crews that have launched with a phone call, on maritime and overland SAR from as far west as Alberta to the Maritimes and north.

We used to joke “oh, long weekend coming. The Hercs should go U/S anytime now”.