Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Halifax Tar]

With OT because of staffing shortages, unforeseen events etc. I see this as normal. Happens all the time in my agency.

and


While I agree with both your points, my reply was about how we (police, fire, EMS, CBSA etc.), as a profession, have public opinion of us shaped by the entertainment industry to our detriment. Thankfully, the Canadian entertainment industry hasn't made another attempt to glamorize the CAF in the same way since Bunker and Hyena Road.

YMMV

Never heard of the bunker before... Have to check that out lol

 

[Haggis]

Never heard of the bunker before... Have to check that out lol

The premise is a gigantic stretch. Have alcohol on hand.

 

[mariomike]

With OT because of staffing shortages, unforeseen events etc. I see this as normal. Happens all the time in my agency.

Elsewhere as well.

OT may be cheaper, and offer the employer more scheduling flexibility, than hiring.

 

[lenaitch]

If this is accurate it's pretty terrible.

Mass shooting victim’s family says mother died hours after Mounties told EHS she was dead​

Her body was covered up but she allegedly lived for another 8 hours.

I agree with others that this seems a tad bizarre. Clearly, this information should have been released by the Commission. First, cops don't get to 'pronounce' somebody dead. They can make some assumptions based on training and experience, but that's all they are. Perhaps the scene was too unstable to allow EMS in, but that needs to be explored and actions/decisions articulated.

I don't know anything about Fitbits, but that screengrab seems to show a really elevated sustained heart rate. With open wounds, a pulse rate like that over several hours does not seem realistic. I remember when my dad passed, the machine he was hooked up to continued to sporadically beep until they turned if off.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Policing and Soldiering are apples and oranges in so many ways. It's not even fair to even compare the two.

I know what can happen when you get soldiers doing the job of the police though:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1511288657512124421

Police are there to uphold the law but have some pretty restrictive use of force protocols they have to follow.

A soldier on operations doesn't have nearly as many restrictions or "checks and balances" depending on the situation.

I can think of a number of personal situations when dealing with PUCs where had things escalated the steps taken between "de-escalation with words" and "violence" would have been a whole lot less than anything a Canadian LEO operating on Canadian soil would ever have had to take.

 

[Haggis]

Policing and Soldiering are apples and oranges in so many ways. It's not even fair to even compare the two.

There is nothing so demoralizing to an Army than to be called to police their own citizens.

Police are there to uphold the law but have some pretty restrictive use of force protocols they have to follow.

A soldier on operations doesn't have nearly as many restrictions or "checks and balances" depending on the situation.

The Incident Management Intervention Model actually gives a lot of latitude to LEOs. Remember, too, that LEOs have more available intervention options than soldiers. (The same goes for the concealed carry crowd. De-escalation becomes very difficult if your only intervention option is lethal force.)

I can think of a number of personal situations when dealing with PUCs where had things escalated the steps taken between "de-escalation with words" and "violence" would have been a whole lot less than anything a Canadian LEO operating on Canadian soil would ever have had to take.

Nothing in law and policy says an LEO must take each step in escalation. I can go from officer presence to lethal force in the blink of an eye based on situational factors and my risk assessment.

Sometimes the best way to de-escalate is through lethal force, when all other options have been exhausted or are unsuitable.

 

[Haggis]

I don't know anything about Fitbits, but that screengrab seems to show a really elevated sustained heart rate. With open wounds, a pulse rate like that over several hours does not seem realistic. I remember when my dad passed, the machine he was hooked up to continued to sporadically beep until they turned if off.

Given my wife's experience with the FitBit I bought her as a well meaning gift (she thinks I bought it to annoy her and it's never really worked as intended) I wouldn't trust it to prove life or death.

 

[mariomike]

Some discussion about FitBit after death, in case anyone is interested,

The Fitbit Community

Yesterday somebody died wearing her Charge 2. To determine the exact time of death we thought we could use the FitBit. Much to our surprise the FitBit still showed a heartbeat. Even 45 minutes after being declared dead there was still a heartbeat shown on the watch and the I-phone!! How is this...

community.fitbit.com

Reminds me of the old Timex commercial.

Given my wife's experience with the FitBit I bought her as a well meaning gift (she thinks I bought it to annoy her and it's never really worked as intended) I wouldn't trust it to prove life or death.

My insurance carrier gives them out as part of their "Vitality" program.

Her body was covered up but she allegedly lived for another 8 hours.

Whatever allegedly happened, or allegedly did not happen, in Nova Scotia, due to their popularity, I can see some families getting irate if their loved one is not transported to a hospital - if their FitBit is allegedly still showing a heartbeat.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

A quick look at my FitBit account shows this incident is not unique. Lots of complaints, but in typical FitBit fashion, no answers, explanations or fixes.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Whatever allegedly happened, or allegedly did not happen, in Nova Scotia, due to their popularity, I can see some families getting irate if their loved one is not transported to a hospital - if their FitBit is allegedly still showing a heartbeat.

I don't think the FitBit data can be used as evidence or proof.

The article also states:

An interview with another Mountie, parts of which were not included in the commission’s summary of what happened, backs up the family’s claim that their mother was left to die.

and

Const. Ian Fahie was one of the first officers to arrive on the scene and attended to O’Brien. In the months that followed, he talked to RCMP and Mass Casualty Commission investigators about what happened next. In his statement to commission investigators, he suggested that O’Brien had a pulse but was left to die because she was mortally wounded and had no chance of surviving.


“So we... I say, we had to let her die, but you know, we had to let her just pass on,” stated Fahie. “We knew she … like to … I don’t think she was going to make it anyways. So, we got a blanket, covered her up and then we just went to the road and guarded.”

 

[Booter]

So where is EMS in all this?

The reason I ask, I’ve been involved in some capacity multiple times in inquiries, there is a bizarre fixation on police,

For example- drunk guy in cells, taken to doctor because police are worried he is so drunk he ll die, doctor says he’s fine. Brought back to cells dies from alcohol,

Inquiry recommendation? Police receive more training in recognizing acute alcohol intoxication to get a person to a doctor, nothing in recommendations for the doctor,

Social worker file- youth commits suicide in care- police need more training in dealing empathetically with people in the care of social services. Social worker recommendation? There needs to be more social workers.

I am biased but it always seems the other agencies skate by.

EMS is a tough cookie with their staging etc. but if you have two guys in the woods- on watch for a shooter, packaging and transporting casualties isn’t in the cards initially.

So if EMS won’t go into the hot zone while being escorted there is little to be done.

Like it or not.

That may not be what happened- I just know that in the back of my mind there is a tendency to over simplify the scale of cooperation needed to resolve these things.

In my present spot- it’s normal for the ambulance to just not attend or take several hours. We package and transport people all the time, and it’s not right- but it’s necessary. If there is an issue- I doubt it will be EMS and the hospital that gets the criticism

Now I do know that’s just one thing in a massive event and the lions share of action is RCMP actions.

Just catches my eye when I see “they left them to die!” And we re talking about the rcmp exclusively.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So where is EMS in all this?

The reason I ask, I’ve been involved in some capacity multiple times in inquiries, there is a bizarre fixation on police,

For example- drunk guy in cells, taken to doctor because police are worried he is so drunk he ll die, doctor says he’s fine. Brought back to cells dies from alcohol,

Inquiry recommendation? Police receive more training in recognizing acute alcohol intoxication to get a person to a doctor, nothing in recommendations for the doctor,

Social worker file- youth commits suicide in care- police need more training in dealing empathetically with people in the care of social services. Social worker recommendation? There needs to be more social workers.

I am biased but it always seems the other agencies skate by.

EMS is a tough cookie with their staging etc. but if you have two guys in the woods- on watch for a shooter, packaging and transporting casualties isn’t in the cards initially.

So if EMS won’t go into the hot zone while being escorted there is little to be done.

Like it or not.

That may not be what happened- I just know that in the back of my mind there is a tendency to over simplify the scale of cooperation needed to resolve these things.

In my present spot- it’s normal for the ambulance to just not attend or take several hours. We package and transport people all the time, and it’s not right- but it’s necessary. If there is an issue- I doubt it will be EMS and the hospital that gets the criticism

Now I do know that’s just one thing in a massive event and the lions share of action is RCMP actions.

Just catches my eye when I see “they left them to die!” And we re talking about the rcmp exclusively.

Carful EMS is one area we can't critique around here

 

[OldSolduer]

Remember a few years back when the Québec Hell's Angels were deliberately targeting members of the law enforcement community? That's pretty damned close to unlimited liability in application but not name.

A few years? Like 30ish IIRC.

 

[Booter]

Carful EMS is one area we can't critique around here

lol I knew as I was writing this…

I think what I mean is the whole public service ecosystem needs examination. I mean really you could take that to health care, education etc.

We seem to be at a point where none of our services are working as intended. Layers and layers of bandaids and blame shifting

I suppose with certainty what I can say- is there but for the grace of god go I that I haven’t had to coordinate anything that large while depending on systems that are designed to be slow so that they don’t incur unnecessary cost.

 

[OldSolduer]

We seem to be at a point where none of our services are working as intended. Layers and layers of bandaids and blame shifting

Too much management and too many good idea fairies.

 

[mariomike]

EMS is a tough cookie with their staging

I don't know the S.O.P. in Nova Scotia.

I'm only familiar with the ASHE S.O.P. in one city, in another province.

Staging at an Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) until Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) arrived On Scene used to be the S.O.P.

Until Columbine.

Now it's Rescue Task Force ( RTF ). You don't wait for ETF.

First arriving street paramedics ( NOT tactical paramedics ) team up with 2 patrol officers to move quickly into “warm” zone areas along cleared corridors to initiate treatment and evacuation of victims.
2 patrol officers for front and rear security and 2 street paramedics in ballistic gear with supplies to treat up to 14 patients.
“Stabilize, position, and move on”
Once the first RTF runs out of supplies, they grab a victim and evacuate out.
RTF re-supply near point of entry.

Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person.

 

[Booter]

My experience is those types of responses don’t exist in rural ems units, it’s part of the reason we have been pursuing all the trauma equipment training we have. I’ll be curious to see what kindve agency recommendations they’ll have for ems (along with others)

In your SOP they discuss warm zones. I’m not even sure if I’m a large portion of this event that’s discussed they ever transitioned away from that initial “hot” on the first series of calls (over several hours)

 

[Haggis]

A few years? Like 30ish IIRC.

1997. Mom Boucher was convicted of ordering the killing of two Correctional Officers. There was another targeted killing of a Montreal police officer around the same time.

 

[Good2Golf]

I don't know the S.O.P. in Nova Scotia.

I'm only familiar with the ASHE S.O.P. in one city, in another province.

Staging at an Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) until Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) arrived On Scene used to be the S.O.P.

Until Columbine.

Now it's Rescue Task Force ( RTF ). You don't wait for ETF.

Siri: “Here’s something I found on the Internet about EMS policies. Take a look. Policies Protocol Manual - Government of Nova Scotia”

 

[mariomike]

Siri: “Here’s something I found on the Internet about EMS policies. Take a look. Policies Protocol Manual - Government of Nova Scotia”

In Nova Scotia. The profession of paramedicine is regulated provincially in Canada.

Then, in Ontario, for example, you get into municipal policies.

If you know one paramedic service in Canada, that's what you know. One service.