Acting Chief of Military Personnel on Diversity, Inclusion, and Culture Change Short-Term Initiatives

[Weinie]

The problem is that, due to the impact of the religious doctrine, the ability to effect change can and will vary in ways that disadvantage already disadvantaged demographics in the CAF.

If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.

I would, however, trust a social worker to.

The only reason that you haven't seen social workers achieve "that type of effect" is simply because that's not how we've been using social workers.. Because we have Padres already filling that role.

That is a great point ,and one that I had not given due consideration. Evolving ideals vs established ideals.

So, as an observation, it appears that we will never achieve the desired/required need to be all encompassing in our CAF community, because we will always be presented with conflicting ideals. Good luck to future CAF leaders

 

[daftandbarmy]

I can't see any of the fire and brimstone types joining to start with, but if they did, nothing stopping them from getting punted if they did violate CAF ethics (or not recruited in the first place), but that really has to be based on the individual. This report is mostly shit, and that's a pretty good example of how poorly thought out a lot of it is, to propose a generalized religious discrimination in an advisory report on anti-discrimination. Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.

Chaplains have a lot of credibility and trust that no other entry point into the mental health services does, and to suggest that really exemplifies how out of touch this report is with reality. 10 out of 10 times I'd start by talking to a Chaplain (regardless of whatever their affiliation was) if I was looking for any advice/support etc, which is really easy to do when they deploy alongside you and are taking the same kind of risks you are. Uniformed social workers just don't do any of this, so they may as well not exist as a trade.

The opinion of the Padre (regardless of faith) also carries an enormous amount of 'weight' with the CO, and higher levels in the CoC, that can be deployed in support of the family/welfare needs of soldiers, especially at the lower levels where they frequently get steamrolled for various reasons.

 

[Weinie]

I can't see any of the fire and brimstone types joining to start with, but if they did, nothing stopping them from getting punted if they did violate CAF ethics (or not recruited in the first place), but that really has to be based on the individual. This report is mostly shit, and that's a pretty good example of how poorly thought out a lot of it is, to propose a generalized religious discrimination in an advisory report on anti-discrimination. Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.

Chaplains have a lot of credibility and trust that no other entry point into the mental health services does, and to suggest that really exemplifies how out of touch this report is with reality. 10 out of 10 times I'd start by talking to a Chaplain (regardless of whatever their affiliation was) if I was looking for any advice/support etc, which is really easy to do when they deploy alongside you and are taking the same kind of risks you are. Uniformed social workers just don't do any of this, so they may as well not exist as a trade.

My wife, who has tholed the experience of all of our 4 children, and is a CAF member, completely agrees with you

 

[mariomike]

I know police that work with social workers, none of them will go anywhere dangerous without a police escort, it's not in their training or outlook.

 

[Navy_Pete]

(edit to add: apologies, quote wasn't working; this is in ref to your reply #201)

@Weinie is that a great point? Extrapolating an individuals bias against a specific religious organization and banning people affiliated with a specific religious organization from even being eligible to join is a fairly broad brush, and would have to be a really extreme organization to even fly. Sure, maybe a Nazi Death Cult of Cthulu might pass a human rights complaint, but that's not the criteria that was proposed.

Large, established global religions have an absolute swath of factions. with varying levels of acceptance and tolerance. If someone is joining the CAF as any trade, they are committing to upholding the CAF ethics. If we look at the committees recommendation about what religious organizations to exclude, I think we'd probably be down to the Satanic Temple and maybe some other minor groups (which would be a pretty interesting Chaplains admittedly). If we instead just apply the existing rules when we screen individuals, and apply it consistently when there are incidents, that would have a real effect, instead of this theoretical nonsense.

I think the bit about maybe doing a PLAR to accept a bit of a wider range of chaplains is a good one. Would also be interesting to see potentially agnostic/atheist chaplains with a philosophy/theology background, who could theoretically do all the same functions aside from practicing some kind of religious ceremony, but even the prayers on parade are pretty non-denominational.

Aside from the label on the lapel, I couldn't tell you what specific religious organization any of the Chaplains I've met have been affiliated with as it just doesn't come up unless you ask or read their bio. At the end of the day Chaplains are recruited from the Canadian population, and the religious demographics by population for the people that get recruited are primarily Abrahamic, and they are doing things like getting advisors on Indigenous practices, which I think is good. If the recruiting gets more successful at recruiting/retaining a more diverse group of people and Canada's demographics continue to shift, not really anything stopping other faiths from becoming Chaplains.

 

[Good2Golf]

If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.

Meh.

I actually witnessed exactly such a situation early in my career and it was a Catholic Padre who was the proponent of initial and unwavering support for the member, who did eventually transition years later.

So, you might throw out a hypothetical situation where you believe religious dogma might be an easy excuse to say that a troubled member wouldn’t be supported, but I saw a Padre represent what I had always believed to be the strength of the Chaplaincy, that all members were first and foremost supported emotionally and spiritually in the sense of non-denominational empathy and support. I’ve been supported by Catholic, Anglican, United (a gay minister BTW) and also a Rabbi in my career and I never felt at any time that any one of the Padres was limited or biased by the institutional dogma of the particular denomination that a Padre was associated with.

You have more faith in the Social Worker Corps than I do. Disappointing experiences with them, until ramped up to a Dr. level…

Alas, we all have our experiences and biases, but I wouldn’t be throwing out the Chaplain Corps to be replaced by social workers anytime soon…

$0.02

 

[Weinie]

(edit to add: apologies, quote wasn't working; this is in ref to your reply #201)

@Weinie is that a great point? Extrapolating an individuals bias against a specific religious organization and banning people affiliated with a specific religious organization from even being eligible to join is a fairly broad brush, and would have to be a really extreme organization to even fly. Sure, maybe a Nazi Death Cult of Cthulu might pass a human rights complaint, but that's not the criteria that was proposed.

Large, established global religions have an absolute swath of factions. with varying levels of acceptance and tolerance. If someone is joining the CAF as any trade, they are committing to upholding the CAF ethics. If we look at the committees recommendation about what religious organizations to exclude, I think we'd probably be down to the Satanic Temple and maybe some other minor groups (which would be a pretty interesting Chaplains admittedly). If we instead just apply the existing rules when we screen individuals, and apply it consistently when there are incidents, that would have a real effect, instead of this theoretical nonsense.

I think the bit about maybe doing a PLAR to accept a bit of a wider range of chaplains is a good one. Would also be interesting to see potentially agnostic/atheist chaplains with a philosophy/theology background, who could theoretically do all the same functions aside from practicing some kind of religious ceremony, but even the prayers on parade are pretty non-denominational.

Aside from the label on the lapel, I couldn't tell you what specific religious organization any of the Chaplains I've met have been affiliated with as it just doesn't come up unless you ask or read their bio. At the end of the day Chaplains are recruited from the Canadian population, and the religious demographics by population for the people that get recruited are primarily Abrahamic, and they are doing things like getting advisors on Indigenous practices, which I think is good. If the recruiting gets more successful at recruiting/retaining a more diverse group of people and Canada's demographics continue to shift, not really anything stopping other faiths from becoming Chaplains.

Maybe you misinterpreted my post. I actually agreed that a trans member wanting to join, would be ill-served by a religion that does not accept trans folks

 

[lenaitch]

"The extreme application of a military's mandate is otherwise counter to and morally repugnant to civil humanity; the place where its members come from, and I would suggest that military needs to provide an avenue where members can personally reconcile that conflict if need be."

Sure, but that's counselling. Which is well within the social worker's wheelhouse. There are some members for which a religious-based form of counselling would be more effective, but as society becomes less and less religious over time, the degree to which we'd need Padres in that role is decreasing.

Not necessarily. Battlefield absolution/confession, last rites, or any other similarly significant services or acts performed by other faiths. Statistically it is likely true that, based on national polls, the impact of faith and religion is diminishing in our society, but we can't deny the deep importance it has for those who still adhere.

Most people who are 'called to the cloth' because they have determined it is a life encompassing calling to serve the tenets of their chosen faith and, when stripped down to their most basic, pretty much every faith is about compassion, sacrifice to service, acceptance and healing. Not to take away from social workers, but I can't say I've ever run into a social worker with the same level of personal commitment. People so inclined find strength in faith; people get help from counselling. There's a difference.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.

Or they may:
1. quit because they signed up to be social workers in an office and not sleep in tents; or
2. not join in the first place when.

I've dealt with non-military social workers before. Perhaps military ones are different but I really can't see any trained social workers having the mindset to rub shoulders with their potential clients like chaplains do.

The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do.

I see it the opposite. A chaplains religion is a sort of disarming tool. Helps them wander around and shoot the shit with soldiers, a subtle presence. I can't see social workers doing that and pushing that on them seems like really big role creep to me. But I'm open to being completely wrong.

 

[OldSolduer]

Alas, we all have our experiences and biases, but I wouldn’t be throwing out the Chaplain Corps to be replaced by social workers anytime soon…

$0.02

As a retired guy with a lot of time in including working with padres I will reiterate my position: A good padre is worth their weight in gold.

Th padre is the "go to" person for extremely difficult personnel problems and understand the military far better than any civilian social worker will.

BTW Mike Brown - one of our Padres in Croatia in 1993 was an exemplary padre. He went toe to toe with the CO on a number of issues.

I was at his memorial service in 2009. RIP Padre.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.

A certain religion has quite the low opinion about women. In fact elected members of our parliament who were female had to enter their place of worship by a separate door from men and sit in the back.

Does this mean you would not trust an officer in the CAF who is a devout member of said religion to treat women soldiers fairly and without bias?

 

[Ostrozac]

Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.

The recommendation that fathers must take PATA leave, including when their mistresses and one night stands give birth, was certainly an unexpected suggestion. Now that’s some out of the box thinking. Very cosmopolitan.

 

[OldSolduer]

The recommendation that fathers must take PATA leave, including when their mistresses and one night stands give birth, was certainly an unexpected suggestion. Now that’s some out of the box thinking. Very cosmopolitan.

Do I detect a note of sarcasm good sir?

 

[mariomike]

This banter reminds me of "The Last Detail",

Meadows : He better hope the Chaplain don't catch him at that.

Mulhall : Shit... most of the Navy Chaplains I know, they want to stand up on the bridge with the old man and look through aviator sunglasses.

Meadows : Mule... it takes a lot of dedication to be a Chaplain in the Navy.

Mulhall : It don't take diddly-shit, man!

 

[Ostrozac]

Do I detect a note of sarcasm good sir?

QR&O requires a member to inform their CO of the birth of a child, and there doesn’t seem to be any legal requirement to inform the spouse. But said spouse would probably figure it out when the member takes PATA leave — “I’ve been ordered on leave, darling. For months. For… reasons”

 

[daftandbarmy]

The recommendation that fathers must take PATA leave, including when their mistresses and one night stands give birth, was certainly an unexpected suggestion. Now that’s some out of the box thinking. Very cosmopolitan.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.

Have you actually been in any church lately? I am not religious, in fact brought up to look down at it, but married a Muslim girl, sent our kids to a United Church which has been incredibly welcoming and had two gay priest during our time there. They provide significant services to the community outside of religious services and often do it for free. As mentioned Chaplin's do it as a calling, whereas the majority of social workers do it because it's a job and they follow strict rules from risk adverse institutions.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Have you actually been in any church lately? I am not religious, in fact brought up to look down at it, but married a Muslim girl, sent our kids to a United Church which has been incredibly welcoming and had two gay priest during our time there. They provide significant services to the community outside of religious services and often do it for free. As mentioned Chaplin's do it as a calling, whereas the majority of social workers do it because it's a job and they follow strict rules from risk adverse institutions.

Dude... this is awesome.

You are the template of 'Canadian'

 

[Brad Sallows]

Although people can sometimes fall short, those who follow "hate the sin, love the sinner" usually manage to find the path to charity.

Products of contemporary university social work schools, I don't expect much from.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Who did they want to ban and who did they want to keep?