Acting Chief of Military Personnel on Diversity, Inclusion, and Culture Change Short-Term Initiatives

[Jarnhamar]

We do have Social Work Officers.. Hiring more of those and using them to fill the roles performed by the Chaplains would be totally doable.

Forgot about them. They don't seem very common. Could we put one in every major unit or one in a couple units smaller units?
I can call my unit chaplain tomorrow and get his help dealing with a member in crisis. I know of another member who's on month 3 waiting for a mental health intake with warrior support.

Do social worker officers deploy to the field and sleep in tents?

It indeed might be more useful for a lot of members who might be hesitant to approach the chaplains due to a distaste or distrust of organized religion.

That's true. I wouldn't say officers in general have an incredible amount of trust going for them right now either but the aversion to religion is a thing for sure.

 

[Weinie]

Let's not pretend like various forms of bigotry don't go hand in hand.

And let's not pretend that some groups will associate bigotry and racism with xxxism....you can't suck and blow at the same time.

 

[btrudy]

Forgot about them. They don't seem very common. Could we put one in every major unit or one in a couple units smaller units?
I can call my unit chaplain tomorrow and get his help dealing with a member in crisis. I know of another member who's on month 3 waiting for a mental health intake with warrior support.

Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.

Do social worker officers deploy to the field and sleep in tents?

As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit.

Face it, the vast majority of the stuff that Chaplains currently do, that everyone keep insisting that they're vital to have, is actually social work. We might as well instead expand and use the group of officers who are actually trained and educated in that role.

 

[Furniture]

Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.


As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit.

Face it, the vast majority of the stuff that Chaplains currently do, that everyone keep insisting that they're vital to have, is actually social work. We might as well instead expand and use the group of officers who are actually trained and educated in that role.

You're assuming that religious organizations don't mandate counselling courses for their ordained members, and ordination in whichever religion a chaplain represents is a requirement to become a chaplain.

We all have biases, and lived experiences. I have never seen a chaplain laugh in the face of a member asking for help, but I had a social worker laugh in my face when I asked for help. You'll hopefully forgive me if I don't think social workers alone are a cure for the ills the CAF is facing.

 

[Weinie]

Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.


As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit.

Face it, the vast majority of the stuff that Chaplains currently do, that everyone keep insisting that they're vital to have, is actually social work. We might as well instead expand and use the group of officers who are actually trained and educated in that role.

So, an atheistic or agnostic CAF going forward? Should we just ignore the report on religiosity that you previously cited as to how we progress? What is the breakdown? How many SWs vs Chaplains of all faiths will suffice to succor the CAF?

 

[btrudy]

You're assuming that religious organizations don't mandate counselling courses for their ordained members, and ordination in whichever religion a chaplain represents is a requirement to become a chaplain.

We all have biases, and lived experiences. I have never seen a chaplain laugh in the face of a member asking for help, but I had a social worker laugh in my face when I asked for help. You'll hopefully forgive me if I don't think social workers alone are a cure for the ills the CAF is facing.

I'm assuming that those mandated counselling courses aren't a sufficient replacement for a Master's degree in Social Work. Especially since I don't trust religious organizations to be setting curriculum for such counselling sessions. Is an organization whose official theological stance is "being gay is a sin" going to provide adequate training to allow Chaplains to properly counsel LGBTQ service members?

I don't buy it.

And if we're going to be trading in anecdotes, I've never seen a social worker steal from a mess and say nothing when junior members get blamed for their theft (until caught red-handed). I have seen that happen with a Padre.

Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad.

So, an atheistic or agnostic CAF going forward?

Well, yeah. The CAF is not and should not be a religious organization.

Should we just ignore the report on religiosity that you previously cited as to how we progress? What is the breakdown?

I'm not sure which report on religiosity you're referring to; I've only had three comments on this thread, and the only thing I "referenced" is the fact that the authors of the report this thread is about are all veterans, as an attempt to discredit the frankly ridiculous notion that they're part of some grand conspiracy to destroy the CAF.

How many SWs vs Chaplains of all faiths will suffice to succor the CAF?

Enough Chaplains to provide the actual religious services we might want them to provide, enough social workers to take over that aspect of their jobs.

 

[Weinie]

I'm assuming that those mandated counselling courses aren't a sufficient replacement for a Master's degree in Social Work. Especially since I don't trust religious organizations to be setting curriculum for such counselling sessions. Is an organization whose official theological stance is "being gay is a sin" going to provide adequate training to allow Chaplains to properly counsel LGBTQ service members?

I don't buy it.

And if we're going to be trading in anecdotes, I've never seen a social worker steal from a mess and say nothing when junior members get blamed for their theft (until caught red-handed). I have seen that happen with a Padre.

Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad.



Well, yeah. The CAF is not and should not be a religious organization.



I'm not sure which report on religiosity you're referring to; I've only had three comments on this thread, and the only thing I "referenced" is the fact that the authors of the report this thread is about are all veterans, as an attempt to discredit the frankly ridiculous notion that they're part of some grand conspiracy to destroy the CAF.



Enough Chaplains to provide the actual religious services we might want them to provide, enough social workers to take over that aspect of their jobs.

I assumed that you were referring to the below report, which was the impetus for the latest discussion.

Part III – Areas of opportunity and recommendations - Canada.ca

You cited the report and implied that a commentator was ignoring racism in his haste to condemn the report.

 

[KevinB]

There are no atheists in a foxhole…

I'm assuming that those mandated counselling courses aren't a sufficient replacement for a Master's degree in Social Work.

You know that part of their theology degree has counseling and support in it.
Most social workers IMHO are useless oxygen thieves who don’t understand the Military and in my experiences (albeit dated) in the CAF just there to check a box.

Especially since I don't trust religious organizations to be setting curriculum for such counselling sessions. Is an organization whose official theological stance is "being gay is a sin" going to provide adequate training to allow Chaplains to properly counsel LGBTQ service members?

You missed the fact the CAF had an openly gay Chaplain General.
Which to me was offensive as fuck - but hey whatever floats your boat.

I don't buy it.

And if we're going to be trading in anecdotes, I've never seen a social worker steal from a mess and say nothing when junior members get blamed for their theft (until caught red-handed). I have seen that happen with a Padre.

I’m guessing Militia unit.

Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad.



Well, yeah. The CAF is not and should not be a religious organization.

Ever been in combat?

I'm not sure which report on religiosity you're referring to; I've only had three comments on this thread, and the only thing I "referenced" is the fact that the authors of the report this thread is about are all veterans, as an attempt to discredit the frankly ridiculous notion that they're part of some grand conspiracy to destroy the CAF.



Enough Chaplains to provide the actual religious services we might want them to provide, enough social workers to take over that aspect of their jobs.

You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer - and by the rest of your comments you didn’t even read the article you are claiming to cite.

 

[btrudy]

There are no atheists in a foxhole…

This is, of course, a blatant lie.

You know that part of their theology degree has counseling and support in it.

Sure, counseling and support which is in accordance with said religion's dogma, which is in many cases renders it incompatible for use in the CAF.

Most social workers IMHO are useless oxygen thieves who don’t understand the Military and in my experiences (albeit dated) in the CAF just there to check a box.


You missed the fact the CAF had an openly gay Chaplain General.
Which to me was offensive as fuck - but hey whatever floats your boat.

I mean, ok? That doesn't mean that we still don't have chaplains representing religious organizations which view homosexuality as a sin.

I’m guessing Militia unit.

No.

Ever been in combat?

No, not that I really see how that's relevant at all.

You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer - and by the rest of your comments you didn’t even read the article you are claiming to cite.

... No, I didn't read the entire report. Because the only part that I was trying to cite was the fact that the members who wrote the report were veterans, to counter the very specific and frankly asinine claim made by someone that the folks responsible for the report were part of "a segment of society that wants to see the end of the CAF."

I am not basing my criticisms of our continued usage of the Chaplaincy on said report.

But, of course, given your proclivity to devolve to personal insults, I hardly expect this conversation to be all that productive.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.

Given our manning shortages I'm disinclined to think just hiring more is a viable solution.

We can't even get enough infantry and they're about as simple to train as pressing I on a keyboard.

Padres are a niche position IMO. I can't see many of them rolling over into another trade, even social worker. I suspect we're short social workers as well.

Face it, the vast majority of the stuff that Chaplains currently do, that everyone keep insisting that they're vital to have, is actually social work.

I've never been visited on the range by a social worker, chatted to one while digging a trench in the rain, and so on with a social worker.

There's a shared sense of comradery with chaplains IMO.

 

[btrudy]

I've never been visited on the range by a social worker, chatted to one while digging a trench in the rain, and so on with a social worker.

There's a shared sense of comradery with chaplains IMO.

That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.

The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.

The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.

I doubt a Social Worker could be compelled to do anything like this.

OTOH, a good Chaplain couldn't be stopped....

 

[Furniture]

I doubt a Social Worker could be compelled to do anything like this.

OTOH, a good Chaplain couldn't be stopped....

And a less dramatic, but no less heroic chaplain...

John Weir Foote - Wikipedia

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.

The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.

first of all Kevin's knowledge of foxholes and what goes in them is quite deep.

2nd you can have "veterans" or service members who will destroy the organisation in an attempt to make themselves feel better.

I know police that work with social workers, none of them will go anywhere dangerous without a police escort, it's not in their training or outlook. Nor will they share anything with the service members. I have seen first had how bad social workers can make a situation much worse.

I have seen a black padre take apart a useless sod who happened to be a visible minority that used the race card anytime someone criticized him. I also seen them out and about, getting wet, cold and talking to people. They are there because of their faith, it's what will give them strength when things get really crappy. A Social Worker will not be there when causalities are coming in from a unit hit by artillery.

 

[lenaitch]

Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.


As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit.

Face it, the vast majority of the stuff that Chaplains currently do, that everyone keep insisting that they're vital to have, is actually social work. We might as well instead expand and use the group of officers who are actually trained and educated in that role.

Except the flexibility doesn't go both ways. A chaplain can provide counselling based on their theological and CAF training, but a counsellor cannot perform some religious acts that, while some may wish to dismiss, may well be very important to the recipient at a particular time and place.

The extreme application of a military's mandate is otherwise counter to and morally repugnant to civil humanity; the place where its members come from, and I would suggest that military needs to provide an avenue where members can personally reconcile that conflict if need be.

 

[Weinie]

That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.

The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.

OK. I will accept that argument, with caveats. I have never, in almost 40 years of service, asked for a Padre to intercede on my behalf, so have no personal hill to die on. But I have seen, on numerous occasions, where a Padre presented a COA that facilitated a successful resolution to a concern within my units. I have never seen a Social Worker achieve that type of effect.

If religious affiliation/orthodoxy allows them to affect this, should we care? I go back to your earlier comment about racism in this thread, which was my original question. Further, should we judge the relativity of a religion to provide care/succor to CAF members? How many rabbit holes would you like to explore? Should I link to the well documented shortcomings/failures of Social Workers?

 

[btrudy]

Except the flexibility doesn't go both ways. A chaplain can provide counselling based on their theological and CAF training, but a counsellor cannot perform some religious acts that, while some may wish to dismiss, may well be very important to the recipient at a particular time and place.

There is certainly this aspect. Which is why I'm not proposing that they be eliminated entirely.

The extreme application of a military's mandate is otherwise counter to and morally repugnant to civil humanity; the place where its members come from, and I would suggest that military needs to provide an avenue where members can personally reconcile that conflict if need be.

Sure, but that's counselling. Which is well within the social worker's wheelhouse. There are some members for which a religious-based form of counselling would be more effective, but as society becomes less and less religious over time, the degree to which we'd need Padres in that role is decreasing.

OK. I will accept that argument, with caveats. I have never, in almost 40 years of service, asked for a Padre to intercede on my behalf, so have no personal hill to die on. But I have seen, on numerous occasions, where a Padre presented a COA that facilitated a successful resolution to a concern within my units. I have never seen a Social Worker achieve that type of effect.

If religious affiliation/orthodoxy allows them to affect this, should we care? I go back to your earlier comment about racism in this thread, which was my original question. Further, should we judge the relativity of a religion to provide care/succor to CAF members? How many rabbit holes would you like to explore? Should I link to the well documented shortcomings/failures of Social Workers?

The problem is that, due to the impact of the religious doctrine, the ability to effect change can and will vary in ways that disadvantage already disadvantaged demographics in the CAF.

If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.

I would, however, trust a social worker to.

The only reason that you haven't seen social workers achieve "that type of effect" is simply because that's not how we've been using social workers.. Because we have Padres already filling that role.

 

[KevinB]

This is, of course, a blatant lie.

Yet you’ve never been in combat…
You must be omniscient then.
Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Blackadder1916]

That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.

The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.

Since I have little to do with social workers or clergy these days, my experience with both professions, in either military or civilian flavour, is dated. However, while there may be overlap in some functions, there is a reason that they are two separate occupations (actually, if one was to count the various denominations of clergy or employment focus of social workers as separate occupations it may number in the dozens or even hundreds).

As one raised Irish Catholic (Newfoundland variant), I naturally consider myself agnostic and have little regard for organized religion and its practitioners, but from experience (operational and otherwise) I've found chaplains to provide a useful service that couldn't be replicated by social workers even if they were directed to "walk around and be comradely". The education and training and most importantly for chaplains (the good ones anyway) their "vocation" prepares each profession differently.

A little light reading about military social work and chaplaincy

 

[Navy_Pete]

I can't see any of the fire and brimstone types joining to start with, but if they did, nothing stopping them from getting punted if they did violate CAF ethics (or not recruited in the first place), but that really has to be based on the individual. This report is mostly shit, and that's a pretty good example of how poorly thought out a lot of it is, to propose a generalized religious discrimination in an advisory report on anti-discrimination. Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.

Chaplains have a lot of credibility and trust that no other entry point into the mental health services does, and to suggest that really exemplifies how out of touch this report is with reality. 10 out of 10 times I'd start by talking to a Chaplain (regardless of whatever their affiliation was) if I was looking for any advice/support etc, which is really easy to do when they deploy alongside you and are taking the same kind of risks you are. Uniformed social workers just don't do any of this, so they may as well not exist as a trade.