AAD and NGS (split from JSS Amphib Capability thread)

[Armymatters]

Dragoon, I acknowledge the fact that we would need more than 2 AOR's, but I was putting more of a emphasis on how many Tribals/Halifax replacements we need. And yes, the Martime patrol tasked frigates would be supplementing the standing task group. For the crew rest and rotation, we have two options: either hire more sailors, or purchase warships that are just as capable (if not so more capable) that have smaller crew requirements. In another thread, I pointed out that the Singaporeans have a variant of the French La-Fayette class frigates (Formidable class frigates) that on paper, have similar performance and capabilites as our Halifax class frigates, yet having a crew size of around 70, excluding the air-wing. They are about the same size as our Cold War destroyers that the Halifax frigates replaced, in terms of displacement.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The problem with reduced crew sizes especoially for our navy is we do more and more boardings....what happens to a 70 man crew of a Formidable class when 20 members are deployed as Boarding Party? That cuts its a ships operations big time. We had a hard time losing 20 with the CPFs in the Gulf, I am also not counting things like part ship hands and storing ship. Yes reducing crew size is all well and dandy but it will play havoc with normal shipboard evolutions.

 

[Armymatters]

The problem with reduced crew sizes especoially for our navy is we do more and more boardings....what happens to a 70 man crew of a Formidable class when 20 members are deployed as Boarding Party? That cuts its a ships operations big time. We had a hard time losing 20 with the CPFs in the Gulf, I am also not counting things like part ship hands and storing ship. Yes reducing crew size is all well and dandy but it will play havoc with normal shipboard evolutions.

That is quite problematic from any standpoint. A innovate solution will be required of some sort, whenever to sail with a crew of 70, and on top of that, have space so that an additional 20 people can be onboard to form a boarding party (when they are not boarding other vessels, perhaps add them in for other tasks around the ship?), or recruit more sailors for warships of the same crew size as today.

Edit: chewing on this some more, The La-Fayette class frigates of which the Formidable class frigates are based off of usually sail with a complement of around 160. I am assuming that there is additional space on the Formidables for additional crew if needed. But since the Signaporeans are replacing a couple of missile boats with these frigates, they may have different roles in mind with their Formidable class frigates.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

That is quite problematic from any standpoint. A innovate solution will be required of some sort, whenever to sail with a crew of 70, and on top of that, have space so that an additional 20 people can be onboard to form a boarding party (when they are not boarding other vessels, perhaps add them in for other tasks around the ship?), or recruit more sailors for warships of the same crew size as today.

Then why not just have a larger crew so you could use them for other functions beside Boardings. That way you have the best of both worlds. Enough crew to man the ship witjout having to embark extra personnel to conduct boardings.

 

[Armymatters]

Then why not just have a larger crew so you could use them for other functions beside Boardings. That way you have the best of both worlds. Enough crew to man the ship witjout having to embark extra personnel to conduct boardings.

That was in short what I was suggesting in the first part, but I wasn't as direct. That would work. Have a crew size of around 90 excluding the air wing when in reality, just to operate the ship at peak efficiency would require less crew, meaning that crew can be temporarily used as boarding party members as needed without sacrificing ship operations. Also, if all hell breaks loose on the warship, there are extra hands to handle the problem (e.g. fire, flood control, etc).

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Its a trade off...always has been. We keep crew around to do more then damage control. Thats why we have so many billets for cooks, MSE,CSE and Combat dep types. This is why we use present members of the ships company for boarding ops, so they can do their regular occupations and be utilized as boarding party members should the need arise. Does not make sense to bring people that have no clue about ships, the class they are embarked on being all by isolated because they are only riders. Brining on temps is just dumb!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I kinda hate to say it, but Armymatters has raised a good point about how we go about crewing our ships.  IMHO, our ships are crewed today, for the most part, "because we have always done it that way".  I'm not sure that we can get away with that next time around- simple demographics are against us.  I agree totally that you need a certain minimum amount of crew just to do damage control (and having been a part of the 2 day, 2 chapter engine room fire on HMCS OTTAWA in 2004, I now know first-hand just how much of an all-ship evolution this is) and to fight the ship efficiently.  The are also daily maintenance , husbandry and logistical issues that require bodies.  I also know that, the more bodies you add to a ship, the more it becomes a "self-licking ice cream cone" ie- you have to devote more people like cooks, clerks, medics, and supply techs just to support yourself.

May I humbly submit for consideration that, in the next class of ship, we really work hard on getting the core crew requirements down, while still providing lots of extra bunks to give to you flexibility on how you employ the ship.  The ship should be automated and redundant up the hoop.  Everything should be designed with ease maintenance and cleaning kept in mind (lets try and get cleaning stations down to less than 2 hours/day!).  Maybe, the FMFs should be alot larger, so that maintenance alongside is done largely by them (yeah, I know, we have to fix the union issue first...) or a contractor.  Maybe boarding parties should become a specialty (like clearance diver) and only be embarked when needed, kind of like the Air Dept (heresy, I know).  Maybe our current naval trades are not structured correctly and need to be looked at in terms of who does what (this should be an ongoing process). 

Maybe when a ship sails to support a Ph IV MARS course or the FNO course, they only need a small "core crew"- the rest can be ashore on course or on leave.  If you are on a fishpat, you will get extra bodies, but not as many as when you sail to the Gulf.

This is isn't meant to suggest that any of the above are the answer.  Rather, I think we really need to start with a clean piece of paper when we design and crew the DDG/FFH repalcement class.

Cheers!

 

[Kirkhill]

Further to SKT and Armymatters:

Could "Marines" - original usage here in the sense of 17th and 18th century sea-solidiers - skilled in boarding operations and assaulting oil rigs etc, not also be taught damage control?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If they can (and do) teach the air department damage control, why not?

You envision a naval infantry role in the CF?

 

[Kirkhill]

Honestly I don't know about the "naval infantry" role SKT.

For once in a long while I am going to admit I am well out of my lane.  I just don't know if such troops would need to be sailors that can handle weapons or soldiers that can handle boats.  I am pretty sure they don't need to be weapons techs, radar operators and members of the "black gang" (ps is that term still used?).

As in all other cases I am just curious as to options.

Cheers.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The reason why we generally take people out of their departments to be on the Boarding Parties is because they know ships. Things might be differently laid out but give any sailor a few minutes and he can figure out what does what. Making Boarding Parties a specialty while an interesting idea is not the way to approach this issue. Warships sometimes do not have the luxury to come back into port and pick up needed personnel should a mission come up or something changes. Having the personnel already onboard IMHO is the smart way to go. Part of a Boarding Party's responsibilities is to provide a prize crew should the need arise to sail a boarded ship into port.

SKT as someone that has gone through Ottawa's fire I submit to you how would you have fared if her crew size was reduced to 100...even 70 as the Armymatters advocates  by him using as his example the Formidable class? My personal opinion is if you sail onboard you should know DC.

 

[Kirkhill]

Part of a Boarding Party's responsibilities is to provide a prize crew should the need arise to sail a boarded ship into port.

Seen.

 

[Armymatters]

I am not suggesting that we create a naval infantry specialty in the CF for purely boarding. I am suggesting that since we can drive down crew basic requirements to operate a ship, why not have extra crew members that could be utilized in roles around the ship (perhaps an extra shift on the boat so that shift hours for sailors are shorter?) that is in excess of what it the ship acutally needs to basically function? These additional sailors that the ship would not otherwise need for a normal mission can be extra watchmen, mechanics, weapons technicians, etc.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

We sail short as it is, trust me reducing crew complement won't help things on a destroyer/frigate sized ship. If anything you make things more dangerous for us. you talk of reducing numbers and then bringing extra numbers onboard for a just in case situation? Again have the numbers onboard so you don't have to worry about being a plug and play sailor. Sailors do not like to be transfered from unit to unit, they get screwed over big time and I guarantee your solution would cause more of a manpower issue then you are trying to solve as most would end up putting in their releases.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

SKT as someone that has gone through Ottawa's fire I submit to you how would you have fared if her crew size was reduced to 100...even 70 as the Armymatters advocates  by him using as his example the Formidable class? My personal opinion is if you sail onboard you should know DC.

Ex-D,

You are preaching to the choir here.  We ran thru 5 attack teams and had 19 guys go down with heat exhaustion.  That was a one compartment, one zone fire, with no one shooting at us.

The point I was trying to make was, I don't think we have the luxury of starting from the premise that a FFH/DDH sized ship "needs" 235 bodies, because that is what we have always done.  I really think that we need to throw away the rule book and man the new ships very carefully and get the crew size down, if at all prudent.

Everyone who is going to travel by ship in the Canadian navy, including the army guys on the BHS, are going to have to have at least some exposure to damage control training, IMHO.

Cheers buddy.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am not sure if there is an easy solution to this issue SKT... as an ATL on my ship I tried to imagine fighting a fire on a frigate sized ship (i.e. Formidable class) with 70 in the ships company vice a CPFs ships company of 225+ and honestly the thought scares me. Probably why I am so vehemently opposed of reducing crew sizes anymore then they have to.Especially with what duties a crew has to do and what additional ones are forced upon us as the situation dictates.

 

[Armymatters]

I am not sure if there is an easy solution to this issue SKT... as an ATL on my ship I tried to imagine fighting a fire on a frigate sized ship (i.e. Formidable class) with 70 in the ships company vice a CPFs ships company of 225+ and honestly the thought scares me. Probably why I am so vehemently opposed of reducing crew sizes anymore then they have to.Especially with what duties a crew has to do and what additional ones are forced upon us as the situation dictates.

I am thinking that the Signaporeans have thought about this when they decided to procure their Formidable class frigates, with their reduced crew size. I have never had any experience with these ships as they are brand new, but perhaps the ships have some systems that allows a smaller crew to fight fires better, or something. I don't know, but I wish to find out. Too bad I don't have anyone to talk to in Singapore's defence forces to see how the Formidable frigates would handle a fire.

 

[aesop081]

I am thinking that the Signaporeans have thought about this when they decided to procure their Formidable class frigates, with their reduced crew size. I have never had any experience with these ships as they are brand new, but perhaps the ships have some systems that allows a smaller crew to fight fires better, or something. I don't know, but I wish to find out. Too bad I don't have anyone to talk to in Singapore's defence forces to see how the Formidable frigates would handle a fire.

So please tell me what ships do you have experience with.  Also, tell us what it is you consider to be "experience"  :

 

[Armymatters]

So please tell me what ships do you have experience with.  Also, tell us what it is you consider to be "experience"  :

I actually haven't seen the ships up close, or have been onboard them, nor have I talked to the sailors onboard the ship to ask their opinion on the ship itself and the systems onboard. In short, I have had zero contact with the frigates to see the equipment onboard, and how the crew think about them. I am making the assumption that the Singaporeans have thought about this carefully, as these frigates are actually the first big combatant warship the Singaporeans have operated in a long time. Before these frigates came online, they operated missile boats that were all smaller than 1,000 tons displacement.

 

[aesop081]

I actually haven't seen the ships up close, or have been onboard them, nor have I talked to the sailors onboard the ship to ask their opinion on the ship itself and the systems onboard. In short, I have had zero contact with the frigates to see the equipment onboard, and how the crew think about them. I am making the assumption that the Singaporeans have thought about this carefully, as these frigates are actually the first big combatant warship the Singaporeans have operated in a long time. Before these frigates came online, they operated missile boats that were all smaller than 1,000 tons displacement.

Short answer being "I have none" but i wasnt talking about just the Singapore ships.....i was asking about you experience with ANY warship.

Thanks  :