A Deeply Fractured US

[Lumber]

Here is the difference:

Trudeau is harming the country vs The State is harming a person.

Every person is innocent until proven guilty. The State gets no such right, it must demonstrate lawfulness at all times.

Omfg do you realize who we're talking about?

 

[Remius]

Here is the difference:

Trudeau's government is harming the country vs The State is harming a person.

Every person is innocent until proven guilty. The State gets no such right, it must demonstrate lawfulness at all times.

No, the difference is in regards to your beliefs that Trudeau’s government is harming the country and you don’t think that Trump’s was harming his.

It is the very belief that some have that Trump harmed the country that the state is taking action against him.

 

[brihard]

I don't know. If all these cases are technically legal, were they initiated in good faith?

For example, the 51 former intelligence officials, who signed a statement claiming the Hunter Biden laptop scandal had "earmarks" of Russian disinformation, didn't technically break the law. Though we now know they purposefully mislead the public leading up to an important election. What impact do you think examples like this have on public trust for these institutions?

You did not answer my question. Here it is again: the more they go after Trump, the higher his support. Why do you suppose that is?

“Technically legal”. You’re weaseling pretty hard on that one. The evidence in most of them is more than a little compelling. Tell me who would get away with (allegedly) retaining nuclear weapons information, defying a subpoena to give it back, and obstructing justice in further investigation and enforcement of same? “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime” is a concept applicable to a markedly lower level of misdeeds than that.

As for why more people support him? I don’t know and don’t really care. The election will be what it is. My primary concern is that, particularly on the alleged retention of national security information and the alleged attempts to subvert the election, that justice is done to the best ability of the system to address it. If he is acquitted, that’s fine. If hems convicted and still elected, well then a bunch of people are idiots, but that will still force a large system reckoning within American politics. But there is ample evidence on which to prosecute, and my concern is on seeing that process take place fairly.

 

[QV]

No, the difference is in regards to your beliefs that Trudeau’s government is harming the country and you don’t think that Trump’s was harming his. Latest polls indicate I'm in the healthy majority on the first part, and as for the latter at least 100 million people south of the border believe that.

It is the very belief that some have that Trump harmed the country that the state is taking action against him. Or it can be a number of bad faith actors as previously demonstrated.

 

[Remius]

Only if you link voter intention and disapproval rates or what not as to meaning they think whatever leader they oppose is believed to be causing harm.

That would be silly. That isn’t accurate barometer for « causing harm ».

Otherwise Harper, Trump and anyone defeated as incumbents were causing harm to their country.

The point that Lumber brought up is the hypocrisy of applying one set of beliefs on one and not the other because he’s « your guy ».

I won’t go so far as to reinforce Lumber’s contention that people are dumb and dangerous. Just that people are people and will follow their nature and belief system regardless of the facts. It’s their feelings that matter to them.

 

[QV]

“Technically legal”. You’re weaseling pretty hard on that one. The evidence in most of them is more than a little compelling. Tell me who would get away with (allegedly) retaining nuclear weapons information, defying a subpoena to give it back, and obstructing justice in further investigation and enforcement of same? “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime” is a concept applicable to a markedly lower level of misdeeds than that.

As for why more people support him? I don’t know and don’t really care. The election will be what it is. My primary concern is that, particularly on the alleged retention of national security information and the alleged attempts to subvert the election, that justice is done to the best ability of the system to address it. If he is acquitted, that’s fine. If hems convicted and still elected, well then a bunch of people are idiots, but that will still force a large system reckoning within American politics. But there is ample evidence on which to prosecute, and my concern is on seeing that process take place fairly.

This is where you can't be taken seriously. You want to ignore actual election subversion on the one hand and want loose allegations rigorously pursued on the other. It's all or none, no favorites.

The establishment just can't help themselves and have created a situation where it doesn't matter what they do now, every case is tainted in a huge number of the voting public.

And ignoring his growing level of support for every indictment is just being disingenuous about what is happening.

 

[Lumber]

I won’t go so far as to reinforce Lumber’s contention that people are dumb and dangerous.

I was quoting Men In Black.

 

[Remius]

This is where you can't be taken seriously. You want to ignore actual election subversion on the one hand and want loose allegations rigorously pursued on the other. It's all or none, no favorites.

The establishment just can't help themselves and have created a situation where it doesn't matter what they do now, every case is tainted in a huge number of the voting public.

And ignoring his growing level of support for every indictment is just being disingenuous about what is happening.

One can look at his « growing » support with some skepticism though. Admittedly he fundraises on that. But his recent primaries he’s under performed on the polling predictions.

Donald Trump continues to underperform

The former president won another GOP primary on Tuesday by a smaller margin than the polls suggested.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Lumber]

This is where you can't be taken seriously. You want to ignore actual election subversion on the one hand and want loose allegations rigorously pursued on the other. It's all or none, no favorites.

Where is he ignoring election subversion? If anything, he is supporting the rigorous prosecution of election subversion; Trump's subversion.

 

[mariomike]

Just that people are people and will follow their nature and belief system regardless of the facts. It’s their feelings that matter to them.

Something written on here years ago,

The people who voted for Trump and will vote for him or his surrogate again, in 2020 and in 2024 and beyond, don't care about the data because it doesn't address their issues, their feelings.

"feelings" was typed in bold italic.

 

[brihard]

This is where you can't be taken seriously. You want to ignore actual election subversion on the one hand and want loose allegations rigorously pursued on the other. It's all or none, no favorites.

The establishment just can't help themselves and have created a situation where it doesn't matter what they do now, every case is tainted in a huge number of the voting public.

And ignoring his growing level of support for every indictment is just being disingenuous about what is happening.

If you choose not to take me seriously, have at 'er. Whether others choose to or not isn't your call. I've never been troubled by your opinion of me and I'm not about to start now.

Which 'loose allegations' do you see me wanting 'rigorously pursued'? I'm talking about things where charges are laid and abundant evidence is before the courts. There's plenty I'm ignoring too because I don't feel it's strong enough to comment on. So put up or shut up- what do you feel I'm pushing that I can't point to an evidentiary grounding on?

I'mm all for investigating and charging any and all election subversion, and I'm politically agnostic on that. I care about the protection of integrity overall far more than any particular partisan standpoint.

I'm not ignoring his level of support. I just don't care if people choose to support him because they feel he's being persecuted. They can vote as they see fit for any qualified candidate, because that's democracy.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Obviously, the same can be said for biden/democrats. As for feelings, that is the mana of the left. Their platform is built on it, vice substance.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The point that Lumber brought up is the hypocrisy of applying one set of beliefs on one and not the other because he’s « your guy ».

Which has a name: Isolated demand for rigor.

Also underpins "rule of law".

 

[dimsum]

Obviously, the same can be said for biden/democrats. As for feelings, that is the mana of the left. Their platform is built on it, vice substance.

I’d suggest that the number of right wingers losing their minds that Taylor Swift is dating a member of the team that won the Super Bowl would suggest that the right cares a lot about “feelings” too.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’d suggest that the number of right wingers losing their minds that Taylor Swift is dating a member of the team that won the Super Bowl would suggest that the right cares a lot about “feelings” too.

Wait, thats a thing ?

 

[Remius]

Wait, thats a thing ?

More or less yes. Now that the superbowl is over it seems to have died down a bit.

US rightwing conspiracy theory touts Taylor Swift as ‘Pentagon asset’

Far-right influencers make absurd claim singer an ‘election psyop’ to ‘manipulate’ voters after ‘rigged’ Super Bowl favors Chiefs

www.theguardian.com

Basic premise is that the Super Bowl has been rigged by the pentagon and that TS is a one of their assets and she will endorse Biden after the win.

 

[Remius]

To expand on the whole Taylor Swift thing.

- The talking heads and politicians spreading this do it to get clicks and supporter engagement not so much because they themselves believe it.

- Stats show that one third of MAGA types believe it. A scary number yes. but…

I have mentioned that I really like watching Michael Smerconish. He explored this issue on one of his shows and made a really good point. Taylor Swift is a brand. It has massive reach in the hundreds of millions. The brand also has hundreds of millions of emails, financial info, spending data, trending items etc etc collected from those hundreds of millions of followers. An endorsement from Taylor Swift would be massive and could in fact influence the election results by large numbers.

Taylor Swift tweeted to go out and register on voter registration day and there was a 23% surge in registrations over previous years.

https://www.npr.org/2023/09/22/1201183160/taylor-swift-instagram-voter-registration

Biden’s Team know her reach and data her brand has and can reach out to. They absolutely want to tap into that. Who wouldn’t?

Now, for the conspiracy types this is an easy win for them. How likely was it the Chiefs were going to win? How likely is Taylor Swift going to endorse Biden over Trump. If they get it wrong they move on, if they get it right then they will point to how right they are. Yeah…right.

Look at all the types that point to Trudeau’s separation as proof they are right about the rest of their stone cutter secrets. Despite the fact that breakup rumours dodge every leader, that separation nationally is at a 50% rate and even higher for elected officials. If they get it wrong they just find the next crazy story. If they get right they point to it.

It’s a fascinating subject.

 

[dapaterson]

You didn't even mention a song written by a black lesbian topping the country music charts.

 

[Kirkhill]

This article is recommended to those that take Trump literally.

The most famous frontier braggart was Davy Crockett, an Appalachian backwoodsman who rose to the Tennessee legislature and the US Congress, died at the Alamo, and passed into legend as the King of the Wild Frontier. Here he is in full flight: “I am a real ringtailed roarer of a jawbreaker, from the thunder and lightning country down east. I make my breakfast on stewed Yankee and pork steak, and, by way of digestion, rinse them down with spike nails and Epsom salts […] I can out-eat, out-drink, out-work, out-grin, out-snort, out-run, out-lift, out-sneeze, out-sleep and out-lie anything in the shape of a man or a beast, from Maine to Louisiana.”

One of his speeches before the US Congress began, “Mr Speaker, who-who-woop! Bow-wow- wow! I’ve had a speech in soak this six months, and it has swelled me like a drowned horse. If I don’t deliver it I shall burst and smash the windows. The gentleman from Massachusetts talks of summing up the merits of the question, but I’ll sum up my own. In one word I’m a screamer, and have got the roughest racking horse, the prettiest sister, the surest rifle and the ugliest dog in the district […] I can walk like an ox, run like a fox, swim like an eel, yell like an Indian, make love like a mad bull…”

A Short History on American Bragging

From the Mississippi Delta to Trump Tower, Richard Grant writes a history of American grandstanding, eloquence and excess

www.port-magazine.com

Trump's support largely comes from west of the Cumberland Gap. The Cumberland Gap is not named for the Duke of Cumberland but for the county in England from where many of the people collectively known as Scotch-Irish came. They, like the rest of their kin on both sides of the Scots-English border and in Northern Ireland, were much given to bragging and boasting as a sport. A sport that dates all the way back to the Saxon mead halls.

References - Albion's Seed - Four British Folkways in America "Borderlands"

And this bunch of Archaeologists and Historians on the site of a Saxon excavation.

 

[dimsum]

This article is recommended to those that take Trump literally.

A Short History on American Bragging

From the Mississippi Delta to Trump Tower, Richard Grant writes a history of American grandstanding, eloquence and excess

www.port-magazine.com

Trump's support largely comes from west of the Cumberland Gap. The Cumberland Gap is not named for the Duke of Cumberland but for the county in England from where many of the people collectively known as Scotch-Irish came. They, like the rest of their kin on both sides of the Scots-English border and in Northern Ireland, were much given to bragging and boasting as a sport. A sport that dates all the way back to the Saxon mead halls.

References - Albion's Seed - Four British Folkways in America "Borderlands"

And this bunch of Archaeologists and Historians on the site of a Saxon excavation.

The problem is when some folks who take him literally don’t realize that he’s bragging. And the grifters that take advantage of that ignorance.