A Deeply Fractured US

[brihard]

Now don't be bringing facts into this , you know how that derails an argument.

Sorry

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I joined the military in 1968. I had the opportunity, to live and work under his governments. The worst PM until his son came along, IMO. I can't answer for the entire electorate. The same type of electorate that continues to vote in our current, ahem, PM who is in a pissing contest with his dad's ghost as to who can fuck us over more.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I haven’t seen anything resembling a Joe Biden cult. Even the Dems aren’t jazzed about him, but they also realize they have a thin bench for alternatives.

You have to open your eyes to see. Who do you think keeps him in power? Jazzed about him or not, they are doing whatever he says. They are drinking his Koolade and defending his positions. That means they support him unconditionally, as they do, or they are mercenary.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Now don't be bringing facts into this , you know how that derails an argument.

Yup, opinions are like assholes.

We discuss here, not argue. Disparaging one liners excepted.

 

[brihard]

I joined the military in 1968. I had the opportunity, to live and work under his governments. The worst PM until his son came along, IMO. I can't answer for the entire electorate. The same type of electorate that continues to vote in our current, ahem, PM who is in a pissing contest with his dad's ghost as to who can fuck us over more.

It’s entirely possible that Canada was in fact happy to have a communist PM for nearly all of 20 years. I just don’t think it’s that likely, particularly given that the NDP won fewer seats in all four elections combined than PET won in any single one of the elections he came out victorious in. I think a Canada willing to elect a communist (even a communist one) would have seen much stronger NDP results. I think you’re seeing his political views through a thick lens of your own beliefs.

Anyway, opinions etc.

 

[Good2Golf]

Trudeau is about the strongest cult of personality in the West, hands down.

 

[brihard]

Trudeau is about the strongest cult of personality in the West, hands down.

Among Western heads of government and senior leaders, yeah, I think that’s fair to say.

 

[Lumber]

Trudeau is about the strongest cult of personality in the West, hands down.

Among Western heads of government and senior leaders, yeah, I think that’s fair to say.

Are you shitting me? Trudeau doesn't hold "rallies" and you don't see people dressed up in head to toe pro-Trump style "Trudeau" swag, you dont see cars details head to toe in swag, etc.

Trump has the biggest cult following of anyone that we have ready access to see.

 

[Lumber]

You have to open your eyes to see. Who do you think keeps him in power?

Umm... Time? I think it's time. Is it time that keeps him in power? You know, how it's not time yet for an election so he just... Stays in power until its time for an election?

So, it's time, right? That was the answer?

 

[mariomike]

Trudeau doesn't hold "rallies"

He ( and President Biden too, since this is U.S. Politics ) don't need to "hold rallies".

They hold office.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It’s entirely possible that Canada was in fact happy to have a communist PM for nearly all of 20 years. I just don’t think it’s that likely, particularly given that the NDP won fewer seats in all four elections combined than PET won in any single one of the elections he came out victorious in. I think a Canada willing to elect a communist (even a communist one) would have seen much stronger NDP results. I think you’re seeing his political views through a thick lens of your own beliefs.

Anyway, opinions etc.

No bri. Go read his history, prior to and after WWII. Who he hung with, where he went, his views, etc. Including his love for communist regimes.

OK, I'll stop derailing. Just go and check out his early years.

 

[brihard]

No bri. Go read his history, prior to and after WWII. Who he hung with, where he went, his views, etc. Including his love for communist regimes.

OK, I'll stop derailing. Just go and check out his early years.

Sure, and very possible that his views evolved over time, and that actually having to content with the realities of Parliament, then Cabinet, then PM put some water in his wine. He was likely more constrained by objective realities by that point, as are all PMs. I doubt any govern the way they said or thought they would a decade or two prior. In any case, whatever balance he achieved, he seems to have done so very convincingly for the voters of that era- and I don’t think they’d have gone for a communist.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but:

• Pierre Trudeau was NOT a communist;
• Pierre Trudeau was NOT an anti-communist, either;
• Pierre Trudeau was a socialist;
• When he was in Paris in the late 1940s Pierre Trudeau embraced a 'doctrine' of anti-nationalism because, he felt, it would excuse his actions in the 2nd World War which, in 1944/45, he realized had put him on the wrong side of history;
• One interesting facet of Pierre Trudeau's anti-nationalism was that he did not (could not? would not?) differentiate between the militant nationalism of say the Italian Fascists and the German Nazis and the defiance of Churchill and Britain. All nationalist impulses were bad, he said, and whether he actually believed it or not was and remains immaterial;
• Pierre Trudeau came into power as the Vietnam War was at its depths - Canada (and Europe) was resoundingly anti-American. Pierre Trudeau probably believed that the USA was at least as big a threat to global peace and security as was the USSR. Again, whether he actually believed that, to not, is immaterial, he 'sold' that notion to Canadians;
• Being a committed, educated socialist, Pierre Trudeau actually seemed to believe that wealth was created by the efforts of the masses and that they, had a right to share it all;
• Pierre Trudeau had a firm anti-British mindset. He was, personally, proud of his Anglo-Irish heritage and, especially of his facility with the English language but he detested English (Locke, Mill, etc) liberalism because it is very untidy and it offended the Cartesian logic which had been drilled into him as a student; and
• Pierre Trudeau didn't much understand or like Canada hors de Québec. I suspect he really wanted to be a European.

 

[JLB50]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but:

• Pierre Trudeau was NOT a communist;
• Pierre Trudeau was NOT an anti-communist, either;
• Pierre Trudeau was a socialist;
• When he was in Paris in the late 1940s Pierre Trudeau embraced a 'doctrine' of anti-nationalism because, he felt, it would excuse his actions in the 2nd World War which, in 1944/45, he realized had put him on the wrong side of history;
• One interesting facet of Pierre Trudeau's anti-nationalism was that he did not (could not? would not?) differentiate between the militant nationalism of say the Italian Fascists and the German Nazis and the defiance of Churchill and Britain. All nationalist impulses were bad, he said, and whether he actually believed it or not was and remains immaterial;
• Pierre Trudeau came into power as the Vietnam War was at its depths - Canada (and Europe) was resoundingly anti-American. Pierre Trudeau probably believed that the USA was at least as big a threat to global peace and security as was the USSR. Again, whether he actually believed that, to not, is immaterial, he 'sold' that notion to Canadians;
• Being a committed, educated socialist, Pierre Trudeau actually seemed to believe that wealth was created by the efforts of the masses and that they, had a right to share it all;
• Pierre Trudeau had a firm anti-British mindset. He was, personally, proud of his Anglo-Irish heritage and, especially of his facility with the English language but he detested English (Locke, Mill, etc) liberalism because it is very untidy and it offended the Cartesian logic which had been drilled into him as a student; and
• Pierre Trudeau didn't much understand or like Canada hors de Québec. I suspect he really wanted to be a European.

Edward, I think your assessment of PET is bang on. I suspect he was also the class clown when he was a boy…remember how he did a pirouette or some such move behind the Queen’s back? He loved attention and frequently relished rocking the boat. And, yes, he probably wanted to be European. By the way, as I was typing this, I got to wondering if PET might be a middle child; so I just checked his Wikipedia listing and, yep, he was the middle child.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but:

• Pierre Trudeau was NOT a communist;
• Pierre Trudeau was NOT an anti-communist, either;
• Pierre Trudeau was a socialist;
• When he was in Paris in the late 1940s Pierre Trudeau embraced a 'doctrine' of anti-nationalism because, he felt, it would excuse his actions in the 2nd World War which, in 1944/45, he realized had put him on the wrong side of history;
• One interesting facet of Pierre Trudeau's anti-nationalism was that he did not (could not? would not?) differentiate between the militant nationalism of say the Italian Fascists and the German Nazis and the defiance of Churchill and Britain. All nationalist impulses were bad, he said, and whether he actually believed it or not was and remains immaterial;
• Pierre Trudeau came into power as the Vietnam War was at its depths - Canada (and Europe) was resoundingly anti-American. Pierre Trudeau probably believed that the USA was at least as big a threat to global peace and security as was the USSR. Again, whether he actually believed that, to not, is immaterial, he 'sold' that notion to Canadians;
• Being a committed, educated socialist, Pierre Trudeau actually seemed to believe that wealth was created by the efforts of the masses and that they, had a right to share it all;
• Pierre Trudeau had a firm anti-British mindset. He was, personally, proud of his Anglo-Irish heritage and, especially of his facility with the English language but he detested English (Locke, Mill, etc) liberalism because it is very untidy and it offended the Cartesian logic which had been drilled into him as a student; and
• Pierre Trudeau didn't much understand or like Canada hors de Québec. I suspect he really wanted to be a European.

Correct me please, but weren't the Trudeau's a wealthy family before PET got into politics?

 

[JLB50]

Correct me please, but weren't the Trudeau's a wealthy family before PET got into politics?

From what I gather his dad had a fair bit of money, certainly enough to send PET to one of the most prestigious schools…the same one he sent Justin to decades later.

 

[brihard]

From what I gather his dad had a fair bit of money, certainly enough to send PET to one of the most prestigious schools…the same one he sent Justin to decades later.

From perusing Wiki, PET’s father was born and raised on a farm, studied law at school, and built up a chain of gas stations that he eventually sold to an oil company. Self-made millionaire, near as I can tell (and that in the 1930s when it meant vastly more).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but:

• Pierre Trudeau was NOT a communist;
• Pierre Trudeau was NOT an anti-communist, either;
• Pierre Trudeau was a socialist;
• When he was in Paris in the late 1940s Pierre Trudeau embraced a 'doctrine' of anti-nationalism because, he felt, it would excuse his actions in the 2nd World War which, in 1944/45, he realized had put him on the wrong side of history;
• One interesting facet of Pierre Trudeau's anti-nationalism was that he did not (could not? would not?) differentiate between the militant nationalism of say the Italian Fascists and the German Nazis and the defiance of Churchill and Britain. All nationalist impulses were bad, he said, and whether he actually believed it or not was and remains immaterial;
• Pierre Trudeau came into power as the Vietnam War was at its depths - Canada (and Europe) was resoundingly anti-American. Pierre Trudeau probably believed that the USA was at least as big a threat to global peace and security as was the USSR. Again, whether he actually believed that, to not, is immaterial, he 'sold' that notion to Canadians;
• Being a committed, educated socialist, Pierre Trudeau actually seemed to believe that wealth was created by the efforts of the masses and that they, had a right to share it all;
• Pierre Trudeau had a firm anti-British mindset. He was, personally, proud of his Anglo-Irish heritage and, especially of his facility with the English language but he detested English (Locke, Mill, etc) liberalism because it is very untidy and it offended the Cartesian logic which had been drilled into him as a student; and
• Pierre Trudeau didn't much understand or like Canada hors de Québec. I suspect he really wanted to be a European.

Thanks Edward.

I'll admit playing fast and loose with the words communist and socialist. In my mind I find little difference and use the terms in kind.

In see socialism as a collective cooperation of citizens making all governmental institutions public. You won't get a Doctor bill because we all paid huge taxes to provide that service. Ie: collective cooperation

Communism on the other hand, a subset of socialism, is also based on collective cooperation. The difference is that communism is cooperation based on and administered by a single totalitarian government.

Hope that makes sense. I might not have articulated it that well.

For the trudeaus, they seem enamored and envious of totalitarian communist collectives. Cuba and Red China to name a couple.

 

[dimsum]

I'll admit playing fast and loose with the words communist and socialist. In my mind I find little difference and use the terms in kind.

I don't know if I'd call the Scandinavian countries (specifically Norway, Denmark, and Sweden - not sure about Finland) "communist". They are most definitely socialist though.

 

[KevinB]

You have to open your eyes to see. Who do you think keeps him in power? Jazzed about him or not, they are doing whatever he says. They are drinking his Koolade and defending his positions. That means they support him unconditionally, as they do, or they are mercenary.

If you an actually look at POTUS’s voting record pre Presidency, he’s arguably a lot more Republican leaning than many others (inc DJT).
I don’t really like him, but I do think he’s been a better President for us than 45 was…