4 dead in Afghan protests over cartoon of prophet

[Fishbone Jones]

Cannonfodder,

For the last time. Quit condemning the whole religion and society for the actions of a faction.

 

[Kirkhill]

It doesn't do much good to continue beating up on people because they are "ignorant" when they, as individuals, haven't been given the opportunity by their society to become literate.  Duey put his finger on it.  

The only news these people have access to is what comes from the Imams or through the rumour mill at the bazaar.  If by ignorant you mean uninformed I would agree, but I doubt that that is what you mean.

As to the lack of education perhaps some of the guys out there would care to comment.  I am willing to bet it has something to do with lack of money, lack of time, lack of schools and too much time dodging bullets and Taliban canes.

Having said that education may not be the entire answer.  Even Canadian University students have been known to act in similar manner to these muslim crowds.

There is a difference between the agitator and the crowd.  The problem is with the agitators, not the crowd.

 

[Cannonfodder]

   Iam not condeming the whole society they just have not been fighting the stereotypes held in the west effectively . True these are also showed by media services that have there own adgenda , ratings points  , they are not countering misconceptions by giving into rage .

 

[Cannonfodder]

  The problem is that the agitators in Iran , Syria are the government , how do you counter that ? . It is alot easier to fan the flames of religous rhetoric than it is to address the needs of your people , tyrants recognize this and use it for there own advancement  .

 

[Sig_Des]

I don't think it's a society as a whole...or at least, I hope it isn't. Stereotypes (even those of western society) are alway perpetuated by actions and media.

I think something we have to be more worried about, is the mob mentality. People who can be very level-headed as a rule can be whipped into a frenzy by those who are in a position of power, IE the Imams, people they've been raised to follow and believe unquestionably.

I've lived in Syria, and I've become familiar with the Muslim culture, and have great respect for a lot of people who follow Islam. It's sad to see the teachings warped and twisted by the extremists.

Cannonfodder, instead of condemning, how would you suggest they get themselves away from the stereotypes

 

[48Highlander]

I don't think it's a society as a whole...or at least, I hope it isn't. Stereotypes (even those of western society) are alway perpetuated by actions and media.

I think something we have to be more worried about, is the mob mentality. People who can be very level-headed as a rule can be whipped into a frenzy by those who are in a position of power, IE the Imams, people they've been raised to follow and believe unquestionably.

You know, I'm sure most of the German people were very intelligent and reasonable individuals back in the 1930's, but the fact that they were "whipped into a frenzy by those who are in a position of power" does not in any way change what happened.  The German's weren't even subject to an oppresive religion which threatened to stone them if they didn't do exactly what the neighbourhood leader/bully said.  All it really takes is a people willing to beleive that they're superior but have been unfairly treated by everyone else, and a leader willing to lead them to combat.  You figure we would have learned something from WW2.  I'm sure some of the same arguments were being made back then in order to avoid stereotyping and pissing off the Germans.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/57.htm


There is the difference from post WW1 and post WW2 as to why there was no "repeat offenses" from Germany.
You know, like we are trying to do in Afganistan..........or, in your mind are we just wasting our time on those [ your quote] "ignorant racist savages"?

 

[Sig_Des]

48, what I take contention to is statements like:

Pagans , mindless easily manipulated ignorant illiterate pagan puppets

If you're going to compare the German society of the '30s to current day Islamic society, there are some subtle differences.

The German people I believe had a much better opportunity to be educated, IMHO, as opposed to the countries like Syria and Afghanistan, where it is very difficult for the lower classes to become "enlightened".

True, many of the rioters in certain countries don't have that excuse, as they have many opportunities available to them to not give in to every word and teaching of Preachers who push them to burn and loot, but then, neither do the people of western society who do the same at events like, say, G-8 summits.

I just feel bad that a lot of those people don't have the same opportunities or environments that many of us had growing up, to allow us to make our own decisions, and be taught that if something is wrong, take mature action to change it.

 

[Cannonfodder]

Bruce if you are going quote someone do it properly , this is how misinterpretations start .

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Pardon?

 

[Cannonfodder]

Bruce read your last post , you miss quoted me , these misquotes can lead a discussion down in the wrong direction . Christian , Muslim , Judaism , Hindu ; all religions have been used to manipulate the masses . Even more disturbing is the manipulation of the media to manipulate  the perceptions of the target audience . So even enlightened societies can be subject to mob rule , ignorance and selective dispensing of information  can achieve a desired effect . My first post was a general comment about the mob that rioted , not Islam as a whole . However , Islam  has not evolved with the times instead its evolution has remained at an impasse as the result of its leaders using Islam to oppress its people .

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Not you, I responded to the post above mine [48th]refering to Germany, hence the link to the Marshall Plan.......

 

[Cannonfodder]

  Sorry

 

[Acorn]

EDIT: I got a bit wound up about the direction of the "discussion" and resorted to a personal attack on 48Highlander.

My apologies.

 

[DG-41]

It appears that these cartoons may have stepped on a particular Islamic taboo regarding the depiction of Mohammad *at all* - there are fairly strict prohibitions against idolatry in Islam, and apparently a picture of Mohammad counts as idolatry.

Then you add in that Mohammad is the holiest prophet in the religion, having a similar status as Jesus (save that he is not considered divine) does to Christianity.

This combines to make these cartoons... I don't know if there's an exact analogue for the west... maybe something similar to defecating on a crucifix and wiping your ass with the national flag? Or the regimental guidon?

In any case, they carry a lot more impact than one might expect from a Western perspective, where we are used to depictions of satire (watch any episode of South Park)

And of course, there are people in this culture whose best interests are served by preventing Joe Muslim from making nice with the West, and who are making hay with this by doing everything they can to blow this up into a conflagration.

So while I'm strongly opposed to censorship (reflecting my belief in the Western value of "free speech") I'm also forced to conclude that publishing these cartoons was really, really stupid. The West needs to get away from Islamophobia and this "us vs them" mentality that pushes moderate Muslims toward the extreme - and crap like this does that cause no good.

DG

 

[Kirkhill]

I am of an age that despite being a non-practising Presbyterian I am still unsettled by seeing actors portray Jesus.  Until the 1970's the Hollywood convention was not to show the actor's face,  exactly the same convention as adopted by the Muslims in all their depictions of the prophet.  I believe it may have been Jesus Christ, Superstar that broke that taboo.  Mel Gibson's movie on Jesus certainly could not have been made back then.  Having said that Roman Catholics have always been comfortable with images of Jesus, and even God, just so long as they are not blasphemed.

Despite Western Liberalism there are still many Christian societies, and many Christians in Liberal societies that are deeply offended by some of the more obnoxious liberties taken with their symbols.  From time to time the sense of offence is strong enough to result in protests,  and some of those can occasionally turn violent.  I would suggest that somebody displaying an image of Jesus smeared in Elephant dung in the Phillipines would be given short shrift in a society where the Crucifixion is a ritual repeated yearly complete with nails through the hands.  Boycotts of theaters are common enough in the West.

So if the offence is common to Islam and Christianity,  if the outrage is common to Islam and Christianity, if even the demonstrations and occasional violence are common to Islam and Christianity (as far as I can gather for all the heat and property destruction there has been relatively little death) where are the differences?  The intensity of the demonstrations don't seem to be much greater than those of the WTO demonstrations in Seattle, Washington, Montreal or Genoa.

One difference is the degree of organization - similar in scale perhaps to those anti-war demonstrations staged around the world in the last few years.  Another difference is that where the sitting governments in the West have effective means of controlling such demonstrations some government in other places seem unable or disinclined to control their demonstrations.

It doesn't appear to me to be an issue of the people, or the religion so much as the organizers.  And of course media which loves a story.  Crowd size estimates, near as I can gather,  seem to number in the ten thousand range at most.  In Lebanon pro-democracy demonstrations numbered in the hundreds of thousands just a year or so ago. 

I am not yet convinced that a Clash of Civilizations has occured.  I am convinced that there are a number of people, not all of them necessarily Islamic nor western, that see benefits in a Clash of Civilizations and are working hard to create such a thing.

 

[48Highlander]

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/57.htm


There is the difference from post WW1 and post WW2 as to why there was no "repeat offenses" from Germany.

Correlation is not causation.  You should know better than that.

You know, like we are trying to do in Afganistan..........or, in your mind are we just wasting our time on those [ your quote] "ignorant racist savages"?

I'm not against what we're doing in Afghanistan.  What I'm against is the PC mindset that says "most muslims are a-ok, so we can't descriminate at all or offend them in any way".  I'm all for trying to educate them; either we win their "hearts and minds", or we nuke 'em, and I'm not a big fan of genocide, but as long as most of our people have this mindset, we're not going to be able to achieve either.

48, what I take contention to is statements like:

If you're going to compare the German society of the '30s to current day Islamic society, there are some subtle differences.

The German people I believe had a much better opportunity to be educated, IMHO, as opposed to the countries like Syria and Afghanistan, where it is very difficult for the lower classes to become "enlightened".

True, many of the rioters in certain countries don't have that excuse, as they have many opportunities available to them to not give in to every word and teaching of Preachers who push them to burn and loot, but then, neither do the people of western society who do the same at events like, say, G-8 summits.

I just feel bad that a lot of those people don't have the same opportunities or environments that many of us had growing up, to allow us to make our own decisions, and be taught that if something is wrong, take mature action to change it.

What they have and don't have is irrelevant, we still have to be able to realize that they DO NOT have the same values that we have, and that sooner or later we're going to have to do something about it.  How we proceed is open to debate, but we need a game-plan, and we need to stick to our guns.  The fact that modern-day muslims don't have the opportunity to educate themselves while the Germans may or may not have only makes things worse.  It means in addition to kicking their asses, we have to try and reverse centuries of ass-backwards religious indoctrination.  And it makes an eventual global war all the more likely.

You really need to invest in a clue sonny-jim. Man, your level of bigotry knows few bounds, doesn't it?

What you know about the Middle East, and Islam in general, seems to me to be barely able to fill a thimble. Nice quoting of history. Shame you take the wrong lessons.

Love you too babe.

 

[Acorn]

I'm not against what we're doing in Afghanistan.  What I'm against is the PC mindset that says "most muslims are a-ok, so we can't descriminate at all or offend them in any way".  I'm all for trying to educate them; either we win their "hearts and minds", or we nuke 'em, and I'm not a big fan of genocide, but as long as most of our people have this mindset, we're not going to be able to achieve either.

What they have and don't have is irrelevant, we still have to be able to realize that they DO NOT have the same values that we have, and that sooner or later we're going to have to do something about it.  How we proceed is open to debate, but we need a game-plan, and we need to stick to our guns.  The fact that modern-day muslims don't have the opportunity to educate themselves while the Germans may or may not have only makes things worse.  It means in addition to kicking their asses, we have to try and reverse centuries of ***-backwards religious indoctrination.  And it makes an eventual global war all the more likely.

I think you've made your point crystal clear. My emphasis added, in case anyone missed it.

I have a feeling as I type this the mods are deciding what to do.

 

[48Highlander]

I think you've made your point crystal clear. My emphasis added, in case anyone missed it.

I have a feeling as I type this the mods are deciding what to do.

You seriously don't see a problem, eh?  I mean it's one thing to try and be polite in order to avoid offending people.  That I can understand.  But sticking your head in the sand and pretending there's no threat to our society from fundamentalist Islamism?  That's....well, it's not something I'd expect from a soldier, that's for sure.  Maybe some guy with long hair and sandals....

 

[Acorn]

In my job I deal with the threat every day, in one way or another. I see just as much, if not more, damage incurred from overstating the threat than from ignoring it.

We can't very well win hearts and minds by, through our own ignorance, giving the radicals the tools to influence the ignorant masses.