09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!
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But the whole of the CF isn't undergoing budget cuts. The Department of National Defence had a budget increase this year.
I thought that was the point of the entire discussion on PR spin with regard to "cuts" versus "adjustments". Certain organizations within the Department have either forecasted incorrectly, over-spent thus far, or ran low on money for the rest of the fiscal year somehow. Some of these organizations (Let's call one of them "The Army) have been forced to make some rather drastic changes in the way they operate for the next few months (Cutting Class A & B budgets). However, this doesn't mean that the situation is the same for all the other organizations, such as the Navy still running training at its reserve divisions, or the CMP not deciding to cancel renovations needed at RMC.
And yes, the optics may seem bad. But this doesn't mean that IM Group, or ADM Mat, or CEFCOM or any of the other L1s should feel obligated in any way shape or form to hand some of their budget over to the group that's feeling the pinch the most.
I thought that was the point of the entire discussion on PR spin with regard to "cuts" versus "adjustments". Certain organizations within the Department have either forecasted incorrectly, over-spent thus far, or ran low on money for the rest of the fiscal year somehow. Some of these organizations (Let's call one of them "The Army) have been forced to make some rather drastic changes in the way they operate for the next few months (Cutting Class A & B budgets). However, this doesn't mean that the situation is the same for all the other organizations, such as the Navy still running training at its reserve divisions, or the CMP not deciding to cancel renovations needed at RMC.
And yes, the optics may seem bad. But this doesn't mean that IM Group, or ADM Mat, or CEFCOM or any of the other L1s should feel obligated in any way shape or form to hand some of their budget over to the group that's feeling the pinch the most.
McG
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One problem in this thread is that many are looking at spending in one place or another, and then launching on that as proof that there should not be cuts somewhere else. Unfortunately, this approach fails to recognize that different budget decisions are made in different locations across all levels of command.
Decisions to cut from reserve pay in the Army may be in stark contrast to Class B hiring by other level 1 organizations in the NCR. Decisions to cancel training in 32 CBG may not match the decisions to only cancel yet-to-be started courses in other brigades.
The effectiveness of any given HQ in managing its budget prior to the “adjustment” is also likely to affect the money it still has available (and the money its subordinate elements have too).
The same is true of Vote 1 & Vote 5 money. Capital expenditures for infrastructure betterment or equipment modernization may appear far less impacted than heavily clawed back money for pay and training. But we cannot legally move money that Parliament voted into one pot in order to increase the size of the other pot.
The optics might suck, but it does nothing chasing on after what is happening in some other unit in some other formation of some other command.
Decisions to cut from reserve pay in the Army may be in stark contrast to Class B hiring by other level 1 organizations in the NCR. Decisions to cancel training in 32 CBG may not match the decisions to only cancel yet-to-be started courses in other brigades.
The effectiveness of any given HQ in managing its budget prior to the “adjustment” is also likely to affect the money it still has available (and the money its subordinate elements have too).
The same is true of Vote 1 & Vote 5 money. Capital expenditures for infrastructure betterment or equipment modernization may appear far less impacted than heavily clawed back money for pay and training. But we cannot legally move money that Parliament voted into one pot in order to increase the size of the other pot.
The optics might suck, but it does nothing chasing on after what is happening in some other unit in some other formation of some other command.
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Just my grain of salt.
Some organization who work for the regF(mostly) actually prefer class B to have some stability in the position their manning. There is a cost to retraining a new guy every 3 to 4 year. And they can have a class B 20 years in a position if they want, with the guy knowing every in and out of the place and the job.
Some organization who work for the regF(mostly) actually prefer class B to have some stability in the position their manning. There is a cost to retraining a new guy every 3 to 4 year. And they can have a class B 20 years in a position if they want, with the guy knowing every in and out of the place and the job.
CountDC
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ettibebs said:
and they can have a civilian position created and hire someone into an established position for 20 years or more with them knowing every in and out and give a little more job security to that person.
Am actually hoping they will do that to 2 posns here - mine and the Cl B Capts. Give some much needed stability to the office. I imagine that Cl B is one of the so called NCR bloat some have mentioned. Suggest you don't be so quick to judge. That position is very much needed right now and there are a fair number of people that would benefit from having it filled - mainly reserves looking for money.
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gcclarke said:
I work with a number of naval reserve officers and they are telling me that the situation is pretty bad for them too. Alot of NRDs are only authorized one parade night between now and April. Moreover, alot of the class B funding that they require for training purposes, like courses, OJT ect... has been eliminated. Seems to me their situation is not quite as terrible as the army, however, its still pretty awful.
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At my NRD the only cutback that has been seen is Admin nights. Cutting out the admin night mostly affects the HODs and CHODs and not the average sailor.
Otherwise, we are still training as on the schedule. Yes, we were informed the same thing, no new class B and no new TD until the new FY. But there is still NABs training scheduled for our unit. So training is getting completed, just at a reduced level (10 pers vice 30).
Otherwise, we are still training as on the schedule. Yes, we were informed the same thing, no new class B and no new TD until the new FY. But there is still NABs training scheduled for our unit. So training is getting completed, just at a reduced level (10 pers vice 30).
Monsoon
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Uh... unless they want, you know, "administration" done of their behalf. Or training to be ready for them on the training night.kratz said:
Anyway, NAVRES and the Navy in general have handled the cuts differently owing to their different situation relative to the Army. The scale of the cuts (sorry, "reallocations") were every bit as big as those handed to the Army - in fact, larger on a per capita basis - but the Navy has a large, controllable cost: fuel. So the sailing schedule for the fleets were heavily reduced before contracts were pared back (you don't really need guys doing OJT on ships alongside) and before NAVRES was asked to hand back their share of the cost. To my knowledge, no contracts were terminated prematurely.
Each NRD was handed the same cut (in the low double digits) to their annual budget, but since the reduction came in the last fiscal quarter it was amplified in scale. Since budgets are delegated to the unit level in NAVRES to a greater extent than I believe is the case in the militia, the NRDs were able to decide how they wanted to achieve the reductions and to reap what they sowed in the first three quarters of the FY. We were all warned back in the summer that these cuts were a good possibility; any unit that's completely canceling training now didn't heed the warning.
For my unit, we were able to make the cut by moving some recruit pre-BMQ training to the new FY and by canceling the equivalent of one week a month in both training and admin. We're also trying to clamp down on attendance on admin nights, but realistically the work done on those nights (at least at my unit) is pretty fundamental to the unit's running. We're not going to save too much by canceling them, but we sure as heck can mess things up.
Brad Sallows
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Speaking of peanuts vs hundreds of millions of dollars, how much - percentage wise - of the goal is achieved by gutting 3 months of class"A". Seriously.
The last time this happened while I was still active I thought about the numbers a little and was disgusted. Miniscule gain with heavy adverse impact, all because some people thought the "pain had to be fairly shared". Tripe.
The last time this happened while I was still active I thought about the numbers a little and was disgusted. Miniscule gain with heavy adverse impact, all because some people thought the "pain had to be fairly shared". Tripe.
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CANLANDGEN 004/10 CLS 004/10 181818 JAN 10
SUBJECT: MGT OF ARMY RES ON CL B SVC OUTSIDE OF THEIR ARMY RES UNITS
1. SINCE THE BEGINNING OF CANADA S MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN, THE CF AND THE ARMY TEAM (REGULAR, RESERVE AND CIVILIAN) HAVE DEMONSTRATED BOTH DEDICATION AND FOCUS LEADING TO OUR CURRENT SUCCESS. INDEED, THE ARMY TEAM HAS ANSWERED THE INCREASING DEMANDS PLACED UPON IT SINCE 2001 AND HAS ABLY FILLED IN WHERE AND WHEN REQUIRED TO SUPPORT THE ARMY S MISSION ABROAD AND AT HOME. THIS CONTRIBUTION IS WELL RECOGNIZED AND APPRECIATED.
2. IT IS MY INTENT TO ENSURE THAT THE ARMY CONTINUES TO DELIVER EFFECTIVELY AND EFFICIENTLY THE CRITICAL WAR WINNING EQUIPMENT, HIGH READINESS, AND COLLECTIVE AND INDIVIDUAL TRAINING FOR BOTH THE REGULAR AND RESERVE
3. TO MEET THIS INTENT, IT IS NECESSARY TO ENSURE THAT THE LIMITED RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO THE ARMY ARE FOCUSED ON THE ARMY S PRIORITIES. ONE SUCH AREA
NEEDING OUR IMMEDIATE ATTENTIONS IS THE EXPANDING NUMBER OF ARMY RESERVISTS WHO, WHILE EMPLOYED ON FULL TIME SERVICE OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOME UNIT, CONTINUE
TO OCCUPY POSNS WITHIN ARMY RESERVE UNITS BUT ARE NEITHER CONTRIBUTING TO THE TRAINING AND ACTIVITIES OF THEIR HOME UNIT NOR READILY AVAILABLE TO THE ARMY. THERE IS A COST ASSOCIATED WITH CLASS B MANAGEMENT, AND, FOR THE MOST PART, THE COST TO MANAGE SOLDIERS EMPLOYED IN AND OUT OF THE ARMY HAS BEEN BORNE BY THE ARMY. GIVEN FISCAL REALITIES, THE ARMY CAN NO LONGER FUND MANAGEMENT SUPPORT TO SOLDIERS EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE ARMY, AND, TO THAT END, THE COST OF CLASS B MANAGEMENT WILL BE SHARED AMONG THE VARIOUS EMPLOYERS.
4. IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THIS GOAL, ALL ARMY RESERVE PERSONNEL EMPLOYED ON CLASS B OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOME UNIT FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME (MIN OF ONE YEAR
REMAINING ON THE TOS) WILL BE POSTED TO THE EMPLOYING UNIT OR THE APPROPRIATE PRL SUPPORTING THE EMPLOYING UNIT NLT 31 MARCH 2010. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS DIRECTION WILL BE AT THE DISCRETION OF THE L2 COMDS, ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS, AND MAY ONLY BE CONSIDERED FOR THOSE ARMY RESERVISTS WHO CONTRIBUTE TO HOME UNIT ACTIVITIES AND TRAINING
5. THE ARMY NEEDS TO POSITION ITSELF FOR SUCCESS BY ENSURING THAT IT HAS READY ACCESS TO ITS MOST IMPORTANT RESOURC S WHERE AND WHEN IT NEEDS THEM. THE DIRECTION OUTLINED ABOVE IS MEANT TO RE-ASSIGN THE PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT COSTS TO THE EMPLOYERS RATHER THAT THE ARMY RESERVE UNITS AND ULTIMATELY THE ARMY. THE SAVINGS REALIZED BY THIS MEASURE WILL SERVE TOWARDS REDUCING FUTURE FUNDING REDUCTION AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, REDUCE THE WORKLOAD ON ARMY RESERVE UNIT ASSOCIATED WITH THE ADMIN OF PERSONNEL WHO NO LONGER CONTRIBUTE TO THE UNIT S TRAINING AND ACTIVITIES
6. THIS CANLANDGEN HAS BEEN COORDINATED WITH CMP. LS OPI FOR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS DIRECTION IS THE ARMY G1, COL K. MOHER
SIGNED LGEN A.B. LESLIE, CHIEF OF THE LAND STAFF
SUBJECT: MGT OF ARMY RES ON CL B SVC OUTSIDE OF THEIR ARMY RES UNITS
1. SINCE THE BEGINNING OF CANADA S MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN, THE CF AND THE ARMY TEAM (REGULAR, RESERVE AND CIVILIAN) HAVE DEMONSTRATED BOTH DEDICATION AND FOCUS LEADING TO OUR CURRENT SUCCESS. INDEED, THE ARMY TEAM HAS ANSWERED THE INCREASING DEMANDS PLACED UPON IT SINCE 2001 AND HAS ABLY FILLED IN WHERE AND WHEN REQUIRED TO SUPPORT THE ARMY S MISSION ABROAD AND AT HOME. THIS CONTRIBUTION IS WELL RECOGNIZED AND APPRECIATED.
2. IT IS MY INTENT TO ENSURE THAT THE ARMY CONTINUES TO DELIVER EFFECTIVELY AND EFFICIENTLY THE CRITICAL WAR WINNING EQUIPMENT, HIGH READINESS, AND COLLECTIVE AND INDIVIDUAL TRAINING FOR BOTH THE REGULAR AND RESERVE
3. TO MEET THIS INTENT, IT IS NECESSARY TO ENSURE THAT THE LIMITED RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO THE ARMY ARE FOCUSED ON THE ARMY S PRIORITIES. ONE SUCH AREA
NEEDING OUR IMMEDIATE ATTENTIONS IS THE EXPANDING NUMBER OF ARMY RESERVISTS WHO, WHILE EMPLOYED ON FULL TIME SERVICE OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOME UNIT, CONTINUE
TO OCCUPY POSNS WITHIN ARMY RESERVE UNITS BUT ARE NEITHER CONTRIBUTING TO THE TRAINING AND ACTIVITIES OF THEIR HOME UNIT NOR READILY AVAILABLE TO THE ARMY. THERE IS A COST ASSOCIATED WITH CLASS B MANAGEMENT, AND, FOR THE MOST PART, THE COST TO MANAGE SOLDIERS EMPLOYED IN AND OUT OF THE ARMY HAS BEEN BORNE BY THE ARMY. GIVEN FISCAL REALITIES, THE ARMY CAN NO LONGER FUND MANAGEMENT SUPPORT TO SOLDIERS EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE ARMY, AND, TO THAT END, THE COST OF CLASS B MANAGEMENT WILL BE SHARED AMONG THE VARIOUS EMPLOYERS.
4. IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THIS GOAL, ALL ARMY RESERVE PERSONNEL EMPLOYED ON CLASS B OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOME UNIT FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME (MIN OF ONE YEAR
REMAINING ON THE TOS) WILL BE POSTED TO THE EMPLOYING UNIT OR THE APPROPRIATE PRL SUPPORTING THE EMPLOYING UNIT NLT 31 MARCH 2010. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS DIRECTION WILL BE AT THE DISCRETION OF THE L2 COMDS, ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS, AND MAY ONLY BE CONSIDERED FOR THOSE ARMY RESERVISTS WHO CONTRIBUTE TO HOME UNIT ACTIVITIES AND TRAINING
5. THE ARMY NEEDS TO POSITION ITSELF FOR SUCCESS BY ENSURING THAT IT HAS READY ACCESS TO ITS MOST IMPORTANT RESOURC S WHERE AND WHEN IT NEEDS THEM. THE DIRECTION OUTLINED ABOVE IS MEANT TO RE-ASSIGN THE PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT COSTS TO THE EMPLOYERS RATHER THAT THE ARMY RESERVE UNITS AND ULTIMATELY THE ARMY. THE SAVINGS REALIZED BY THIS MEASURE WILL SERVE TOWARDS REDUCING FUTURE FUNDING REDUCTION AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, REDUCE THE WORKLOAD ON ARMY RESERVE UNIT ASSOCIATED WITH THE ADMIN OF PERSONNEL WHO NO LONGER CONTRIBUTE TO THE UNIT S TRAINING AND ACTIVITIES
6. THIS CANLANDGEN HAS BEEN COORDINATED WITH CMP. LS OPI FOR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS DIRECTION IS THE ARMY G1, COL K. MOHER
SIGNED LGEN A.B. LESLIE, CHIEF OF THE LAND STAFF
George Wallace
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I am curious about para 2. With what I just witnessed today, it is diametrically opposed to actual events.
McG
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And to implement this the Army has created & staffed at least one new PRL (the LFDTS PRL) if not more.
So, the path to better ensuring our limited resources are appropriately focused requires commit more of those limited resources to military HR staff organizations.
That's not entirely unreasonable, but it does seem at least a little juxtaposed (especially at a time when Class B TOS are being canceled to save money).
So, the path to better ensuring our limited resources are appropriately focused requires commit more of those limited resources to military HR staff organizations.
That's not entirely unreasonable, but it does seem at least a little juxtaposed (especially at a time when Class B TOS are being canceled to save money).
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OK, does this mean that Class B currently doing job X according to their TOS will cease to do that job and will now do job Y, as a Class A, for the home unit or does it mean they will do job Y as a Class B?
For me anyway, It does not matter so much whether it is job X or Y but the amount of working days I get paid for.
For me anyway, It does not matter so much whether it is job X or Y but the amount of working days I get paid for.
CountDC
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???
It means he will either
a. carry on just not be held against the unit establishment anymore (which is the way it should have been anyway)
b. stay on the unit establishment, continue with the class b and parade volunteer at the unit on a regular basis
c. give up the class b and return to the unit.
It means he will either
a. carry on just not be held against the unit establishment anymore (which is the way it should have been anyway)
b. stay on the unit establishment, continue with the class b and parade volunteer at the unit on a regular basis
c. give up the class b and return to the unit.
CountDC
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agree.
i think this will be a win/win for the units. Depending on where the class b is in relation to the unit they will either have the member working for them again or free up space on their establishment for someone else to contribut to the unit. Good for the clerks too - they won't have to keep doing work for someone they rarely or never see at the unit.
The only time I could see option c is if the employing unit does not have a posn to put the mbr in.
i think this will be a win/win for the units. Depending on where the class b is in relation to the unit they will either have the member working for them again or free up space on their establishment for someone else to contribut to the unit. Good for the clerks too - they won't have to keep doing work for someone they rarely or never see at the unit.
The only time I could see option c is if the employing unit does not have a posn to put the mbr in.
Hmn. I prefer a more negative view on this. How many of these people on class B that actually parade with their unit are going to get L2 approval? Something tells me not very many, even with justification from their COs. At my unit some of these gusy occupy some key positions.
I'm all for dropping the dead weight that isn't parading, but if we throw out the dedicated class B guys, I'm not sure how this is going to help.
I'm all for dropping the dead weight that isn't parading, but if we throw out the dedicated class B guys, I'm not sure how this is going to help.
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MCG said:
See, now I look at it from the opposite direction ...
All those Reserve Force purple suppies, RMS clerks etc who wear Army uniforms and are currently on B Class contracts working outside of their home units and the Army - in places like DSCO Ottawa etc ... will now be managed and paid for by the entity where they are actually working for and employed in. That will free up lots of "Army money" because there's a whole bunch of purple types on B Class who wear land uniforms employed outside of land Force Units (Res or Reg). That leaves that "Army" money freed up to "manage" B Class actually employed in and for "the Army".
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