09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[dapaterson]

While I agree that there are a substantial number of Class B posns out there, I challenge the "system" to find a better way of filling many of them otherwise.  For example we were tasked with standing up a new HQ (3 Operational Support Group) in Bedford, and we were given 7 Reg force posns to help staff it.  6 of the 7 are no-fill from the Reg force.  So in a HQ that is meant to start off with approx 14 pers, currently we're at 4 pers.  How do you fix that directive without using Class B pers?

Simple.  Tell CLS "No can do" without the needed resources.

Stop lying to higher that "Yes, we can" when we can't.

And tell higher to take an appetite suppressant because the resources aren't out there to make their pipe dreams a reality.

Question: Why does LFAA still have two CBG HQs, when they were instructed over a decade ago that they were entitled to one, and to prepare a rationalization plan?

Start obeying a few orders to reduce overhead, then complain.

 

[dapaterson]

My question is this: for those Reservists on Class B contract for workup for TF1-10, what does that mean to them?

Nothing.  As of the cut-over date they shift to class C, nationally funded.  No problems.

(And there is locally paid class C as well - for example, some of the crew on MCDVs and a handful of other positions - those are paid out of the employing environment's budget, not out of the national Reg F pay account.  DND's accounting is nothing if not, well, interesting...)

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Simple.  Tell CLS "No can do" without the needed resources.

Stop lying to higher that "Yes, we can" when we can't.

And tell higher to take an appetite suppressant because the resources aren't out there to make their pipe dreams a reality.

Question: Why does LFAA still have two CBG HQs, when they were instructed over a decade ago that they were entitled to one, and to prepare a rationalization plan?

Start obeying a few orders to reduce overhead, then complain.

Maybe because we cover 4 provinces?

How about LFCA they have 3 CBG's.

 

[dapaterson]

Maybe because we cover 4 provinces?

How about LFCA they have 3 CBG's.

Yeah.  Right.  Two CBGs plus one Comm Gp turned OSG in LFAA.  For four provinces, and (about) 4K personnel.

Wasteful overhead that isn't needed.


In my world, there would be 2 Reserve formations in LFWA (5 right now), 2 in LFCA (4 right now), two in SQFT (who would inherit the NCR) (3 right now), and one in LFAA (3 right now).

But the LFAA case is simple: orders were given and ignored.  "Plan towards one CBG HQ - two is a temporary measure."  But if you ignore an order long enough someone above might forget it - so you can get away with it.

But this is a side discussion to the larger issue of this thread.

 

[McG]

Doesn't seem to be effecting the schools (at least at CFSME) there are a number of people signing 2-3 year Class B's here.

Your observations are a little stale.  The direction is army wide & includes the schools of CTC.

 

[McG]

But this is a side discussion to the larger issue of this thread.

... and we've done it a few times here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24381.0.html

 

[Monsoon]

The Regular Force is still recruiting...I believe this is the website:

Well a change of government could fix that, too. Regardless of how one feels about canaries, smugness isn't the approach to take when one keels over in a coal mine.

And regardless of how one feels about reservists, I think we can agree that simply leaving the jobs undone of the people whose contracts happen to be expiring today is a damned silly way to manage a budget.

 

[armyvern]

Personally, I think it about time the Reg force had to put their own people into the positions they created. They've had the best of both worlds too long. Times are tough all over this country. No one is owed a living.

Ahhh - this is the Pandora's Box. Put what people in those posns? We aren't recruiting purple trades --- our focus for years has been on zero trades, so sayeth the former CDS. Many many BClass purple types holding up the Army RegF system these days.

You see, the "Army" is at war and has thus grown itself substantially over the past 9 or so years with huge increases in recruiting ... of hard army trades - rightly so. Many of the zero trades are now "overstrength" in the RegF. But, we are at war and therefore they are needed.

Purple trades, however have not seen a posn added to their authorized strength levels since pre-9/11. These trades, because the "Army" has not been vigorously recruiting into them are now very very "red" - some at only 72% manning levels - others far worse off than that.

YET, the very growth of the "teeth" by such high numbers has seen a corresponding increase in the workload on those 72% of purple workers left to do the jobs. The support workloads have increased by approx 200% over the past couple of years, yet we are only manned at 72% of circa year 2000 manning levels.

The Army (in the Reg F) had ZERO choice BUT to hire B Class pers to assist the RegF get that very dirty business of supporting war done.

If not for the sp of BClass ... the Army's sky would fall at some of those "low priority" manning Units (you know, those Pri 6 Units supporting the pri 2 Reg F Army training system). CTC certainly wouldn't be able to train a single RegF Army zero trade candidate were it not for the augmentation of BClass pers into the Reg F Units holding up that particular tree branch right now.

And thus, at 72% manning, the purple trade exodus continues because people have to actually sleep sometime.

You want to stem the use of BClass? Then someone had best come of with some form of incentive to "keep the RegF that you've already got!!" <--- And despite it all, doing that would seemingly be much more cost effecient in the long run.

Times could certainly get very very interesting around there with this freeze.

 

[FDO]

Do you think that because we had so many Cl B posns and made it so easy to get them AND easy to hang to that people just figured they would have a job as long as they wanted so stayed Reserve instead of going RegF? Kind of like having your cake and eating it too. Maybe this move will prompt some CT to RegF thereby filling some of the shortfalls that we have.

 

[corp_express]

Thanks alot for the posts folks,

I started this topic with two aims, first to confirm that it was really happening, "I don't want people to get themselves burned as we did" and to gather some info on what exactly was going on.

So far, I understand that they want a snap shot of all class B's in the army...  I'm sorry but the fact that they don't already have this information says alot about why we are currently in this situation... Why are they throwing us around at the small end of the stick because someone wasn't doing their job properly on the top end. Why a freeze? How does that provide accurate SA...? If contracts go through, why can't they just give 30 days notice and terminate our SOU's.

The problem we're facing is that, since we are all now on class A, our benefits "medical, dental..." are taking a needless hit. There is a damn good chance we'll all walk away with contracts once this "snap shot" is over with, so why give us a break in service to get a picture of what you should have already had.

I can't see why a freeze was necessary.  If they wanted it to be effective why not do it from March to April when all the staff officers who drink coffee and play hockey all day's contracts would be up for renewal.

Why in September, when a couple reservist who facilitate a training calendar, will feel the pinch.



 

 

[corp_express]

Does anyone know where LFDTS teaching positions within CFTPO bricks measure up to this freeze...?

There are training courses starting and I'm curious if the freeze applies to their class B's as well.

 

[Monsoon]

Do you think that because we had so many Cl B posns and made it so easy to get them AND easy to hang to that people just figured they would have a job as long as they wanted so stayed Reserve instead of going RegF? Kind of like having your cake and eating it too. Maybe this move will prompt some CT to RegF thereby filling some of the shortfalls that we have.

Maybe so, but the expansion of the use of Class B personnel isn't "the problem". "The problem" is that there isn't enough money. Let's imagine that the regular CF didn't have a 15-year recruiting problem and that all of those positions currently filled by people on Class B (and I don't think I've seen anyone suggest that those jobs aren't important) were instead filled by people in the Reg F. Now those jobs cost 15% more. Has that solved "the problem", or made it worse? What gets cut then? TD ("everyone can hitchhike to their courses")? Stationery budgets ("make sure your printers are on manual duplex")?

I'll close by noting that two other CF elements, faced with even more significant budget measures and the same delay in allocations, haven't had to resort to these drastic measures to properly manage their finances. I can only assume that someone very senior in CLS either screwed up, or just thinks that this is a perfectly legitimate way to do business.

 

[old fart]

Well a change of government could fix that, too. Regardless of how one feels about canaries, smugness isn't the approach to take when one keels over in a coal mine.

And regardless of how one feels about reservists, I think we can agree that simply leaving the jobs undone of the people whose contracts happen to be expiring today is a damned silly way to manage a budget.

I imagine alot more Class Bs will be feeling the same pain come 2011.  Even if we only draw down 500 or so from Afstan..some folks will be out the Reg Force backfill door.

 

[Monsoon]

I imagine alot more Class Bs will be feeling the same pain come 2011.  Even if we only draw down 500 or so from Afstan..some folks will be out the Reg Force backfill door.

Absolutely - as it should be. At least people will be doing the jobs. But hopefully some time between now and 2011 someone will sit down and figure out how the freed-up HR capacity will be used so they can give people in the backfill positions an advance heads-up that their services won't be needed, instead of just telling them, "Oh yeah - that class B we selected you for two months ago won't be staffed. So sorry."

 

[Journeyman]

For example we were tasked with standing up a new HQ.....

Why not a freeze on standing up more HQs?

 

[dapaterson]

Frankly, looking at the notionals, I can't see what the Army is up to.  While there have been reductions to local O&M, there should be no problems with Res Pay this FY.

Not sure who's calling the tune on this one; I'm almost inclined to think someone looked at the July/Aug class B numbers and began to panic - forgetting that the July/Aug numbers always spike high due to the folks going on training.

 

[Haggis]

Not sure who's calling the tune on this one; I'm almost inclined to think someone looked at the July/Aug class B numbers and began to panic - forgetting that the July/Aug numbers always spike high due to the folks going on training.

You mean, like, a "flinch"?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Oldfart, without the reserves where would you and all your buddies go when you retire? 

 

[George Wallace]

There are a lot of misconceptions and naïveté in this discussion so far.  First off, although Class B contracts are being cut, there will remain exceptions.  With the CF, and the Army in particular, not posting Regular Force Support Staff to many of its Reserve Units anymore, there is an even greater requirement for Class B pers to fill positions to keep those Reserve Units in operation and preventing their complete disappearance.  These include Purple Trades, especially the RMS Clerks and Supply Techs. 

As for “if you want the job, CT to Regular Force” idea being thrown out by a couple of naïve members here; that is ridiculous.  I often encourage that the opposite should also be proposed – CT from Reg to Reserve after a long career.  The Reserves need the experience.

Currently I am an annuitant who is working with several other Ex-Reg Force members in a “Force Generating Unit”.  We are a very cheap and efficient method of Recruiting and training members for the CF.  In the last three years we have trained on average 15 pers in our Trade, of which on average, 7 have immediately gone on Tour.  On average 50% of each of those classes has CT’d to the Regular Force.  In the end we are not gaining any experienced pers, if we train them and then loose them all to the Regular Force.  The Regular Force has a “gold mine” in what we are doing.  Our problem is being able to retain enough pers to become “Trainers”.  A freeze on Class B in our case kills our unit, and deprives the Regular Force of trained pers to either CT to the Regs or Deploy as Reservists. 

This whole idea was poorly thought out, and will have a cause and effect exactly like the Downsizing of the CF, FRP, and the Recruiting Freeze of two decades ago.

 

[corp_express]

Flawed...

It's no skin of their back...  they can always retire to the Commissionaires of Canada.  :

I agree with Wallace though, this is a big mistake. Just stopped one of my buddies from signing a lease on a new apartment thinking he was going to have a job with us next week.

I hope the PERSON, who initiated this freeze sees my redress of grievance fly up his rear end when my contract is approved to move forward and I want missed pay and benefits back.