09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[Larkvall]

Alternatively, the Army, knowing Afghanistan is winding down and faced with looming budget pressures, is trying to hollow out the Reserves to permit it to redirect that funding elsewhere.

At least as logical a hypothesis as any other...

I don't think that makes sense. Some people had their courses cancelled while they were half way through. This had to be some sort of emergency. No?

 

[Spanky]

One wonders how much money could be saved in the reserves by looking at the 50 odd CO's and RSM's of Reserve Infantry Regiments, many full time, compared to the amount of troops they "command." I know of one such unit in BC that parades a platoon minus, has a full time Lt Col and Adj, as well as an RSM that is paid to drive in and spend three days in a hotel every week. Yet no exercises until March?

Let's not haul out that tired old argument shall we?  It's been beaten to death in other old threads.  Abuses in some units.... of course.  Leaders making sacrifices and parading without pay so that their troops are taken care of also occurs.

 

[R031button]

No offense but I think the "parading without pay" was pointed out as being prohibited for quite some time several pages ago. I wasn't bringing up "tired old arguments" I had heard from years ago, those are my experiences in the last year, and they are not uncommon. The simple fact is there are precious few reserve units that can warrant a full battalion staff when a company HQ (albeit with some expanded clerk / stores assets) will do.  Also, and again I don't mean to offend or step out of bounds here, but I'd be interested to know, with 29 years in, what position you hold in your unit.  :warstory:

 

[McG]

The simple fact is there are precious few reserve units that can warrant a full battalion staff when a company HQ (albeit with some expanded clerk / stores assets) will do. 

I don't think the unit level HQs can be cut as a cost saving measure.  I expect that most to all of such savings would have to be invested right back into the amalgamated Bn HQs in order to make it work.  Either way, you can pick-up on the amalgamation discussion here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24381/post-1170#msg1170

 

[R031button]

I would argue you could probably pull a Bn HQ out of a dissolved Bde HQ, of a Bde's worth of Bn HQ's. However, noted, changing lanes.

 

[George Wallace]

I would argue you could probably pull a Bn HQ out of a dissolved Bde HQ, of a Bde's worth of Bn HQ's. However, noted, changing lanes.

I think you missed the point.  Clerks and QM staff do what they are told.  They do not make decisions.  You need and officer and NCO in Ops and Training, an Admin O or Adjutant, etc. in positions to make decisions, produce training plans and materials, Course load pers, etc.  The clerks and QM staff don't make these decisions.  Instead, they take direction from these people to make things happen.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

No offense but I think the "parading without pay" was pointed out as being prohibited for quite some time several pages ago. I wasn't bringing up "tired old arguments" I had heard from years ago, those are my experiences in the last year, and they are not uncommon. The simple fact is there are precious few reserve units that can warrant a full battalion staff when a company HQ (albeit with some expanded clerk / stores assets) will do.  Also, and again I don't mean to offend or step out of bounds here, but I'd be interested to know, with 29 years in, what position you hold in your unit.   :warstory:

He's my Class A Sqn Ops WO, and a damn good one too. What's your point?

 

[Jarnhamar]

The few times I was in KAF unfortunately coincided with ramp ceremonies and seeing the almost couple of thousand (swag must be close) of CF pers on the tarmac, each time I was left wondering how many of folks were actually down range; not even factoring HLTA/VTA.

Were you one of those guys who never stopped bitching about KAF (all the creature comforts, all the facilities, how DARE they get paid the same danger pay?!)  and the minute YOU'RE on KAF all you do is bitch about how bad you want to go back to the FOBs and how much KAF sucks -  while waiting in line at tim hortons & making sure EVERYONE around you at Canada House knew you were out of the FOBs?
I think I bumped into you!

The reg force house is far from perfect.....but I don't see things changing, monies spent on the reserves are monies better used by the regulars (army of course )

Yup. Only your LAV crews me be a little light on the ground. You'll need a platoon or two from somewhere for escort duties.  Not to mention truckers bringing supplies out to the FOBs, clerks handling the "I only have 4 hours PLEASE you have to help me" requests, medics, security tasks.
We have plenty reg force to cove all of that plus more-not to worry.

There will always be dyed in the wool, short sighted careerists that can't see past the empire building sacred teet that they've been milking for most of their adult life. To them the Reservists that stepped up and filled those spots, that the Regs couldn't, on the pointy end in Afghanistan, are still nothing more than a waste of skin to be tossed to the wolves. All they percieve with all the cuts, is a threat to their personal kingdom, that must be preserved at all costs so the stink doesn't touch them.

Well said Recceguy thank you.

 

[Loachman]

There would have been a bunch more Taliban digging nasty things into certain roads often travelled by Regular Force people, and a few more of those ramp ceremonies, were it not for a bunch of Reservists (including a handful of Evil Double-Dippers) operating, maintaining, and supporting Sperwer as well.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The whole "Just a reservist" attitude is sadly still alive and will continue until said  guilty parties (dare I say mentors) stop treating reservists like the ugly girl at the bar come 3 am.

 

[corp_express]

Just like to say to all you CT promoters.... I started this post...  and everyone smirked and said well son time to CT...  join the Reg F and be areal man...  "insert heavy nut sack here"

My CT came back,    Infantry NCM is closed... my options were to decline, or apply for something else.  "the option to wait until it opens was not provided..."

I am a junior leader who served overseas as a junior leader "within the last year"...

Getting crapped on by the army is a lot of fun.
The point I'm trying to make here is...  we're all failling to acknowledge that the Army, if not the CF is in fact headed down a dark trail.

I had a small part in the massive push for Recruiting...  to look back now...  and see all that work "and money" pissed away. .... ....  Well  I can say that my jaw has dropped.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Just like to say to all you CT promoters.... I started this post...  and everyone smirked and said well son time to CT...  join the Reg F and be areal man...  "insert heavy nut sack here"

My CT came back,    Infantry NCM is closed... my options were to decline, or apply for something else.  "the option to wait until it opens was not provided..."

I am a junior leader who served overseas as a junior leader "within the last year"...

Getting crapped on by the army is a lot of fun.
The point I'm trying to make here is...  we're all failling to acknowledge that the Army, if not the CF is in fact headed down a dark trail.

I had a small part in the massive push for Recruiting...  to look back now...  and see all that work "and money" pissed away. .... ....  Well  I can say that my jaw has dropped.

I'm surprised the Infantry didn't keep the back door open for reservists who are CTing to the same trade who have PLQ and specially tour experience- doubly so for someone who was a junior leader overseas.

ith the lack of instructors we keep hearing about it seems wasteful.

 

[dapaterson]

We recruited too many Reg F infantry - so we have lots of Reg F ptes (some trained, some untrained) leaving no space within the Inf PY pool to bring in more.

Indeed, we brought in so many that other recruiting suffers - there's a limit to the funding that can be used for Reg F pay - so too many of one trade means we can't bring in enough of another.

 

[Spanky]

No offense but I think the "parading without pay" was pointed out as being prohibited for quite some time several pages ago. I wasn't bringing up "tired old arguments" I had heard from years ago, those are my experiences in the last year, and they are not uncommon. The simple fact is there are precious few reserve units that can warrant a full battalion staff when a company HQ (albeit with some expanded clerk / stores assets) will do.  Also, and again I don't mean to offend or step out of bounds here, but I'd be interested to know, with 29 years in, what position you hold in your unit.  :warstory:

Where do I begin?  You are right, parading without pay has been prohibited for quite some time.  I'm sure there are policies that would deal with Class B COs as well.  I'm not going to get into a urinating competition with you over this.  You pointed out some "breaches" in order to make the reservist leadership seem to appear like a bunch of free loading sponges.  I countered by pointing out that there are "breaches" that make reserve leadership look like a bunch of honourable leaders with the best interests of their men as a priority.  I know which group I have more respect for. 
I'm sure the same can be said for reg force leadership. 
As far as my position in my regiment goes?  Totally irrelevant and what is your point?

 

[corp_express]

I understand the situation...

I take issue with the fact that my CT process cannot be put on hold pending the trade reopening...  I had to choose "no" or Navy Sonar tech... 

It seems silly to me that, the army would rather, close my file and when the trade re-opens, recruit someone off the street and subsequently be forced to pay for training them from scratch. When they could have left my file in a cabinet... and when the trade re-opens have someone come in who is qualified and knows his way around.

Now I have to wait 6 months, to re-apply and then wait another 3-5 months for them to decide my fate. All the while, I will most definately be seeking alternate forms of employment.

Again...  this thread is dedicated to flinching bad management within the Army... Since they were able to tell me that the trade will most likely re-open at the end of the fiscal year, I feel the notion that the Army is full is a blatant lie.

We just have too much on our plate,  TFK, Op Podium and the G-8 Summit to name a few... 

 

[birdgunnnersrule]

The whole "Just a reservist" attitude is sadly still alive and will continue until said  guilty parties (dare I say mentors) stop treating reservists like the ugly girl at the bar come 3 am.

I agree with this comment.  Having just recently transferred from the Reg Force and the Reserves, I am amazed at some of the comments and remarks that folks make when the realize you are a Reserve member, not realizing you are qualified up the hoop with a tonne of experience.  I guess I could of signed the IPS, been posted another dozen times or so, and lose that second income the spouse brings.  I am digressing and apologize.

The Army will lose a lot of good people due to the stand down and resource constraints.  Having been part of a Total Force unit when it existed, it did provide a valuable resource to draw folks in to the Regular Force, and additional manning as required.  It did suck the weekends and Thursday nights that we had to work, but it was still fun.  When the decision to strip the Reserve elements from the Air Defence and close the smaller MANPAD units in the brigades, it was initially a godsend to start pooling all of the Reg Force members in the NB region.  However, with increased operational tempo, I am quite certain some of the very dedicated reservists that we punted to other units would be appreciated to increase the depth and cover some of the other tasks/deployments.

Let's hope the business planners are looking closely at next year's allocations so that resources are pooled and managed to ensure training.  This means that those so called "bloated posns" such as the Adjt, Trg O, and Ops O types are definitely needed so finite planning and a cost benefit analysis on each event is undertaken to maximize the training opportunity. 

 

[VIChris]

The whole "Just a reservist" attitude is sadly still alive and will continue until said  guilty parties (dare I say mentors) stop treating reservists like the ugly girl at the bar come 3 am.

You make it sound like there's something wrong with that girl. I always looked at her as being dependable, something of a sure thing. Maybe the mucky mucks can just learn to appreciate the ugly chick at the bar come 3am.

 

[R031button]

Where do I begin?  You are right, parading without pay has been prohibited for quite some time.  I'm sure there are policies that would deal with Class B COs as well.  I'm not going to get into a urinating competition with you over this.  You pointed out some "breaches" in order to make the reservist leadership seem to appear like a bunch of free loading sponges.  I countered by pointing out that there are "breaches" that make reserve leadership look like a bunch of honourable leaders with the best interests of their men as a priority.  I know which group I have more respect for. 
I'm sure the same can be said for reg force leadership. 
As far as my position in my regiment goes?  Totally irrelevant and what is your point?

Right, there are breaches that go both ways, fair, and I whole heatedly accept that there's just bad leaders in the regular force. I also have a great deal of respect for those that stay in the reserves and put in their time and effort to keep our units running. However my point was that, even if it's not intentional, these positions are not required and do leech from budget. Please explain to me why units that stand at company strength require Lt Col's and CWOs.

The position in the regiment comment is relevant to this discussion because with 29 years in you are most likely in one of those positions we're talking about, which points to a fair degree of bias.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>One wonders how much money could be saved in the reserves by looking at the 50 odd CO's and RSM's of Reserve Infantry Regiments, many full time, compared to the amount of troops they "command." I know of one such unit in BC that parades a platoon minus, has a full time Lt Col and Adj, as well as an RSM that is paid to drive in and spend three days in a hotel every week. Yet no exercises until March?

In the case of the part-timers, the answer is easy: multiple the difference in pay (LCol - Maj, CWO - MWO) times the number of days paraded on average.  In the case of the full-timers, the question is why/how the full-timer came to be there.  I suppose a platoon(-) in a small community which has withered away to a couple of Lts plus NCMs needs some "adult guidance", but how would a full-time LCol come to be authorized or posted in except by an authority somewhat higher than the unit?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Right, there are breaches that go both ways, fair, and I whole heatedly accept that there's just bad leaders in the regular force. I also have a great deal of respect for those that stay in the reserves and put in their time and effort to keep our units running. However my point was that, even if it's not intentional, these positions are not required and do leech from budget. Please explain to me why units that stand at company strength require Lt Col's and CWOs.

The position in the regiment comment is relevant to this discussion because with 29 years in you are most likely in one of those positions we're talking about, which points to a fair degree of bias.

Pretty bold assumption. You obviously only read and digest what you want to in this discussion. You best go back and read my last response to you. I don't have to defend Spanky but you could only hope to end up half the dedicated soldier that he is. You had a good discussion going until you decided to pull out your smart mouth, short time corporal schtik. Pulling up unfounded accusations, to try back your opinion, such as you have just done, even after being corrected, has just proven that I don't have to waste anymore time with you. Continue tilting at windmills on your own.