09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[brihard]

At least I got my invitation to the 2010 army run...

 

[Haggis]

Well!  There is one other option, that has so far not been mentioned, and that is to take the Class B Reservists and put them on PRL.  That takes them off the Unit rolls, and places them onto the rolls of the employing organization.  That means that the Class B on a contract at a dot.com is completely under their administration.  They may wear a certain hatbadge, but they do not belong to that Unit; they belong to the dot.com.  A member of the OntR working a Class B in Borden, would belong to Base Borden's rolls, and have no administrative links to the OntR in Oshawa. 

100% agree, George.  If a Reservist is on Class B outside the parent unit (i.e. NDHQ, LFDTS, CMTC etc.) and is either unable or unwilling to parade with a unit, then they should be transferred to a PRL.

 

[Spanky]

And yet, there was no mention of Class A reservists.  A figure of 300 must be more palatable to the public than the larger number (in the 1,000s?) that are being affected, to varying degrees. 

 

[McG]

Well!  There is one other option, that has so far not been mentioned, and that is to take the Class B Reservists and put them on PRL.  That takes them off the Unit rolls, and places them onto the rolls of the employing organization.  That means that the Class B on a contract at a dot.com is completely under their administration.  They may wear a certain hatbadge, but they do not belong to that Unit; they belong to the dot.com. 

What does this option do for the problem being discussed (reduced funding for full & part time reserve employment)?  It will not magically produce new money to keep all the class B positions.  Employing units should already be paying for Class B reservists, so it does not make more Class A money available to the home unit.  This options does not seem to anything for the reduced Class A days or the loss of Class B jobs.

 

[Larkvall]

I have heard in recent years that BMQ hasn't been run in the summer in many parts of the country due to the lack of instructors. However, with so many BMQ courses being cancelled won't there be a lesser demand for SQ courses and possibly some trade courses thus  freeing instructors up?
Has there been any talk running BMQ courses in the summer in the halls of power?

 

[George Wallace]

I have heard in recent years that BMQ hasn't been run in the summer in many parts of the country due to the lack of instructors. However, with so many BMQ courses being cancelled won't there be a lesser demand for SQ courses and possibly some trade courses thus  freeing instructors up?
Has there been any talk running BMQ courses in the summer in the halls of power?

If only it were that simple.

Let's see:

Shortage of Instructors.  Need to run more PLQ crses.

No PLQ crses.  No new Instructors.

Current numbers of Instructors available getting smaller, due to CT or Release.

Greater shortage of Instructors.

No courses........


Solution:

More BMQ and BMQ (L) to provide soldiers from which a pool can be made of potential candidates for a PLQ crse.  More PLQ crses to provide more Instructors, who can then teach more courses, CT, go on Tour, or Release without greatly deminishing the Reserves.  This is a long term program, as the time to produce candidates for Leadership courses, and the affects of pers doing CTs or going on Tour keeps the amount of fully trained pers to a minimum in most Reserve Units.

 

[Haggis]

What does this option do for the problem being discussed (reduced funding for full & part time reserve employment)?  It will not magically produce new money to keep all the class B positions. 

But it could change the perception of how many Army Reservists are on Class B and bring it more in line with the reality of how many are employed in and paid for by the Army.

If a Class B Army Reservist is not employed by the Army (i.e. NDHQ, CFRC, CFLRS types) then they should not still be on the Army Reserve establishment.  There are many, many Class B Army Reservists who are employed outside the Army, but still paid by their parent units for convenience.  There are many reasons for this but it's mostly becasue they don't want to transfer to a PRL (and the units don't want to transfer them because they fear losing them forever).  Life on the PRL doesn't offer the same career progression/advancement opportunites that you would find while on unit strength.  So, members who never darken the Armoury door will stay on the unit establsihment in order to have access to career courses, neat taskings and deployment opportunities.

In my opinion, if you're on a Class B away from your parent unit for greater than a year and have no desire or ability to parade with your parent unit (or a similar unit close by) then get off the Army Reserve establishement and transfer to a PRL.  Quit being a speed bump in succession planning and tying up a line serial that you cannot/will not use.

 

 

[brihard]

But it could change the perception of how many Army Reservists are on Class B and bring it more in line with the reality of how many are employed in and paid for by the Army.

If a Class B Army Reservist is not employed by the Army (i.e. NDHQ, CFRC, CFLRS types) then they should not still be on the Army Reserve establishment.  There are many, many Class B Army Reservists who are employed outside the Army, but still paid by their parent units for convenience.  There are many reasons for this but it's mostly becasue they don't want to transfer to a PRL (and the units don't want to transfer them because they fear losing them forever).  Life on the PRL doesn't offer the same career progression/advancement opportunites that you would find while on unit strength.  So, members who never darken the Armoury door will stay on the unit establsihment in order to have access to career courses, neat taskings and deployment opportunities.

In my opinion, if you're on a Class B away from your parent unit for greater than a year and have no desire or ability to parade with your parent unit (or a similar unit close by) then get off the Army Reserve establishement and transfer to a PRL.  Quit being a speed bump in succession planning and tying up a line serial that you cannot/will not use.

Hear hear. I often feel that my regiment is the Liberia of the army reserves- we're the flag of convenience for whoever wants long term class B in the NCR. There have been confirmed sightings of a Col at NDHQ wearing our headdress who was last employed by the regiment in the mid 80s (we won't get into the question of why a colonel is wearing a reserve regiment's uniform in lieu of the generic colonel getup). Go to just about any place in the NCR and you'll find reservists in funny hats who haven't graced the armouries with their presence in years but are still holding a regimental line serial. Sorry, but if you cannot make time to help the unit out, you shouldn't expect the unit to take any further interest in your career progression, nor should you be claiming affiliation with a regiment you've essentially abandoned. If most of our members can go to school full time or work civvie side full time while raising families and still make it in on Thursdays and occasional weekends, buddy working his 8-4 at (pick a building in the NCR) can damned well do the same. If it requires the CO or RSM of the reserve regiment to call his compatriot in the respective organization to hammer out the specifics, so be it.

This year I've seen our guys going on long term class Bs signing agreements with the unit if they intend to continue to make themselves available for training nights or occasional exercises. I don't know what consequences are attending noncompliance or where this is viewed as going long term, but I really hope someone higher up in our unit is looking at ways to cut dead weight line serials. PRL is not a solution to the larger problems in the reserves, but it IS a solution to problems individual regiments are seeing with long term class B regimental absenteeism.

 

[Harris]

The money WAS there for 37 1/2 training days a year.  Since the scale back or what have you, those at the top asked to cut 3 days, to make it 34 1/2 training days a year per class A soldier.  So where did the money go for these reserve units that stood down early, standing back up late, and are on one training night a month?

Well first, Units (at least in LFAA) are funded for 70% (IIRC) of their manning.  So in a Unit of 100 pers, funding is only given for an average of 70 pers per trg event.  So if more than 70% show up to an event, then that $ has to come from somewhere else.

Next there are other things, like Regular Force backfill money.  For example say a Unit is assigned a Regular Force Captain, but no one is available to be posted in.  Normally the Unit is given funds to match what a Captain would make so they could hire a Reservist to fill the posn.  This year it appears in some Units the $ isn't coming.  So Units will have had to take that Class B pay out of the Class A budget.

I'm not saying that there aren't Units out there who haven't mismanaged their funds, I am saying that some Units have had some challenges thrown at them.

 

[McG]

But it could change the perception of how many Army Reservists are on Class B and bring it more in line with the reality of how many are employed in and paid for by the Army.

Change who's perspective?  What is that perspective now, and how does that perspective impact the subject of this thread (reduction of pay for Class A days)?

If a Class B Army Reservist is not employed by the Army (i.e. NDHQ, CFRC, CFLRS types) then they should not still be on the Army Reserve establishment. 

There are Class B reservists employed by the Army in NDHQ.  So many that the Army has its own PRL to look after most of them.

There are many, many Class B Army Reservists who are employed outside the Army, but still paid by their parent units for convenience. 

If the unit is stupid enough to squander its money into paying for employment of pers for another organization, then the problem is entirely in the HQ of that unit.

There are many reasons for this but it's mostly becasue they don't want to transfer to a PRL (and the units don't want to transfer them because they fear losing them forever). 

A reservist does not need to be on a PRL for a separate employing unit to pay the member.  The employing unit provides an appropriate fin code to the home unit, and the home unit budget has no impact from the ERE Class B.

In my opinion, if you're on a Class B away from your parent unit for greater than a year and have no desire or ability to parade with your parent unit (or a similar unit close by) then get off the Army Reserve establishement and transfer to a PRL.  Quit being a speed bump in succession planning and tying up a line serial that you cannot/will not use.

Sure, but I still do not see how that is in any way relevant to this thread.

Go to just about any place in the NCR and you'll find reservists in funny hats who haven't graced the armouries with their presence in years but are still holding a regimental line serial. Sorry, but if you cannot make time to help the unit out, you shouldn't expect the unit to take any further interest in your career progression, nor should you be claiming affiliation with a regiment you've essentially abandoned.

Even on a PRL, Reservists will continue to wear the regimental accoutrement of wherever they came from (in some cases, those accoutrement will even be regular force where a member retired into the PRL).

In any case, I think the availability of PRLs is inflated in a few minds here.  Most units, bases & formations do not have a PRL.  LFDTS is full of fulltime reservists, but there is no PRL there (not even down in CTC).  The only PRLs that I am familiar with are the NDHQ PRL & the LFC PRL (and both serving mainly the NCR).  I assume there are other PRLs (MARCOM and AIRCOM come to mind as likely), but for most cases that I know of there is no PRL.

PRL is not a solution to the larger problems in the reserves, but it IS a solution to problems individual regiments are seeing with long term class B regimental absenteeism.

Maybe, but Class B "regimental absenteeism" is not the subject of this thread.  However, if you really want to get into Class B headquarters bloat and solutions for those impacts on units, then maybe you'd like to take a look at this proposal:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/88898/post-891497#msg891497

 

[CountDC]

Oh I wouldn't doubt it. I hope not though since this is my only job. 20-25 class A days a month is the greatest job I've ever had.

I hope that is a joke as it is against regulations.  I know of one case where a member did work class a for 3 months like that and the period has now been ordered changed to class b. The employing unit  has to cough up the extra money. More money gone from regular unit training.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Now begs to ask the question if these "20-25" Class A Days where they full days (i.e. over 6 hrs) or half days (i.e. less than 6 hrs)

 

[CountDC]

Hear hear. I often feel that my regiment is the Liberia of the army reserves- we're the flag of convenience for whoever wants long term class B in the NCR. There have been confirmed sightings of a Col at NDHQ wearing our headdress who was last employed by the regiment in the mid 80s (we won't get into the question of why a colonel is wearing a reserve regiment's uniform in lieu of the generic colonel getup). Go to just about any place in the NCR and you'll find reservists in funny hats who haven't graced the armouries with their presence in years but are still holding a regimental line serial. Sorry, but if you cannot make time to help the unit out, you shouldn't expect the unit to take any further interest in your career progression, nor should you be claiming affiliation with a regiment you've essentially abandoned. If most of our members can go to school full time or work civvie side full time while raising families and still make it in on Thursdays and occasional weekends, buddy working his 8-4 at (pick a building in the NCR) can damned well do the same. If it requires the CO or RSM of the reserve regiment to call his compatriot in the respective organization to hammer out the specifics, so be it.

This year I've seen our guys going on long term class Bs signing agreements with the unit if they intend to continue to make themselves available for training nights or occasional exercises. I don't know what consequences are attending noncompliance or where this is viewed as going long term, but I really hope someone higher up in our unit is looking at ways to cut dead weight line serials. PRL is not a solution to the larger problems in the reserves, but it IS a solution to problems individual regiments are seeing with long term class B regimental absenteeism.

I agree with you both that the system should be changed so that members going on long term class b away from the unit are either transferred to the employing unit or a prl. Although it will not free funds it will give a better indication of where all the class b employment is.

As for working at the unit while on class b - units are not able to enforce this and the member is not allowed to do it unless the CO of the employing unit authorizes.  The fact that your unit has people sign an agreement to do this isn't worth the paper it is written on as it does not comply with regulations and would not stand the challenge by any member. A member on class b is paid 24/7 by the employing CO and belongs to him 24/7. 

As for your comment on many going to school, working civvie side and making it in so the class b should - they also get compensated while the class b doesn't.

 

[George Wallace]

Wandering off topic a little, again, but LFCA came out with a policy for Class B "overtime".  When a Class B Reservist parades with his unit on an evening, they are permitted to come in to their place of work at 1000 hrs the next day.  If they work a weekend with their Unit, they are permitted one day immediately following as CTO.

 

[CountDC]

Now begs to ask the question if these "20-25" Class A Days where they full days (i.e. over 6 hrs) or half days (i.e. less than 6 hrs)

doesn't matter - the regulation does not seperate the two to avoid units pulling a sneaky and employing a member for just under 6 hours every day. It counts half and full the same - as a day worked.  The case I mentioned had both.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

doesn't matter - the regulation does not seperate the two to avoid units pulling a sneaky and employing a member for just under 6 hours every day. It counts half and full the same - as a day worked.  The case I mentioned had both.

Roger that CountDC .......

Wandering off topic a little, again, but LFCA came out with a policy for Class B "overtime".  When a Class B Reservist parades with his unit on an evening, they are permitted to come in to their place of work at 1000 hrs the next day.  If they work a weekend with their Unit, they are permitted one day immediately following as CTO.

Works similarly at my unit too George the ClassB/A's and Class B crowd usually come in at 0900/1000 on Fridays as we parade Thursday night.

 

[Haggis]

I agree with you both that the system should be changed so that members going on long term class b away from the unit are either transferred to the employing unit or a prl. Although it will not free funds it will give a better indication of where all the class b employment is.

Part of the problem lies with those members swho remain on unit strength and are paid by the unit through RPSR.  Even if the funds are eventually recovered from the employing unit, it appears, through RPSR reporting, that the member is paid for by the Army. 

As for working at the unit while on class b - units are not able to enforce this and the member is not allowed to do it unless the CO of the employing unit authorizes.  The fact that your unit has people sign an agreement to do this isn't worth the paper it is written on as it does not comply with regulations and would not stand the challenge by any member. A member on class b is paid 24/7 by the employing CO and belongs to him 24/7.

If the employing unit concurs (and the regulation is written in such a way that the employing unit must justify refusing to do so) then it's expected that the Class B member will make the effort to parade at least as much as his Class A counterpart.

As for your comment on many going to school, working civvie side and making it in so the class b should - they also get compensated while the class b doesn't.

No, the Class B gets paid for each and every weekend whether he works or not, some get CTO, all get annual leave.  The Class A member gets paid only for the weekends he works and usually has to use his civvy vacation to go on longer exercises. A Class B guy doesn't have to forfeit his annual leave to take a career course.  A Class A guy does.

Wandering off topic a little, again, but LFCA came out with a policy for Class B "overtime".  When a Class B Reservist parades with his unit on an evening, they are permitted to come in to their place of work at 1000 hrs the next day.  If they work a weekend with their Unit, they are permitted one day immediately following as CTO.

That policy only applies to Class B members employed in units within LFCA.  It does not benefit those employed in Ontario but outside the Army such as NDHQ, CFSU (Ottawa) CFRG, CFRETS etc.  (Try showing up at your "outside" (civvy or NDHQ) job at 1000 hrs the morning after a parade night and see how long it is before support for your parading is rescinded.)

CTO= undocumented short leave and is not proivided for in the CF leave policy manual.  The regulations for short leave state that it "may be granted" not "shall be granted".

 

[CountDC]

Wandering off topic a little, again, but LFCA came out with a policy for Class B "overtime".  When a Class B Reservist parades with his unit on an evening, they are permitted to come in to their place of work at 1000 hrs the next day.  If they work a weekend with their Unit, they are permitted one day immediately following as CTO.

By which I am assuming that the LFCA Comd has informed the unit CO's that they will sign the paperwork authorizing the member to parade at the home unit.  Without the paperwork done I would be worried about pension or compensatoin implications if the member was injured. First thing they will look for on a Request for Compensation or Pension application is the authority for the member to be there and that is only done by the employing CO.  Not saying the member will not get compensation in the end but it will make it a lot quicker and easier.

Also this is only applicable to units that fall under LFCA - the member employed here would be told to pound sand if they tried that.  But then we make use of the PRL for all our long term class b.

 

[dapaterson]

Part of the problem lies with those members swho remain on unit strength and are paid by the unit through RPSR.  Even if the funds are eventually recovered from the employing unit, it appears, through RPSR reporting, that the member is paid for by the Army. 

This is extremely rare - few units will post a class B in RPSR with the promise of "Fin Code to Follow".  Indeed, any class B employment message will include the fin code.

If a unit is lead and managed by people stupid enough to pay for someone else's class B with a promise of future reimbursement, they get what they deserve.

 

[Brasidas]

If the employing unit concurs (and the regulation is written in such a way that the employing unit must justify refusing to do so) then it's expected that the Class B member will make the effort to parade at least as much as his Class A counterpart.

What regulation is it that governs this?

No, the Class B gets paid for each and every weekend whether he works or not, some get CTO, all get annual leave.  The Class A member gets paid only for the weekends he works and usually has to use his civvy vacation to go on longer exercises. A Class B guy doesn't have to forfeit his annual leave to take a career course.  A Class A guy does.

I know a number of Class B guys, all of whom are taking up unfilled reg force spots. They work with the unit they're employed at, doing their jobs alongside their regforce counterparts. They go where they're told, when they're told, and have never been expected to show up at their home unit. Some of them haven't been there in years.

The employing unit doesn't like letting them go for career courses, which is unsurprising since it's a short term contract.

That policy only applies to Class B members employed in units within LFCA.  It does not benefit those employed in Ontario but outside the Army such as NDHQ, CFSU (Ottawa) CFRG, CFRETS etc.  (Try showing up at your "outside" (civvy or NDHQ) job at 1000 hrs the morning after a parade night and see how long it is before support for your parading is rescinded.)

Ah, so it's an LFCA policy. I'm still not seeing a reason why a reservist shouldn't take a fulltime contract without being expected to spend his evenings and weekends working at his home unit. If the employing unit sends him to the field during a three week ex, he spends three weeks in the field. If they give him the following weekend off, he gets the weekend off instead of going to do a range ex with class A reservists.

I doubt we're going to agree on this, but that's my viewpoint. With the cutbacks on class A time, I also doubt it's going to make much of a difference as there aren't going to be all that many weekend ex's this spring.