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Worthington Rakes the Subs

Bruce Monkhouse

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http://torsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Peter_Worthington/2005/04/21/1006062.html


    Subs exotic but excess
By PETER WORTHINGTON
 
As if the Gomery inquiry into the AdScam boondoggle weren't bad enough for the Liberals, now we have the submarine scandal.
In some ways, the submarine fiasco is worse than AdScam -- not for sleaze, kickbacks and double-billing, but for incompetence and horrible judgment, as detailed in a scathing report by the all-party standing committee on defence.
The Commons committee found the purchase of four second-hand submarines from the British was bogged down in politics.

That's news?

What isn't "bogged down in politics" with this government (any government, really), especially when it comes to defence?
Conservative defence critic Gordon O'Connor, a one-time general, blames the four-year delay (1994-98) for the screw-up with subs -- a standing joke, since the damn things have trouble working.
Can't these guys get it through their heads that the problem isn't "politics" per se, or delays in closing the deal, but the "deal" itself?
Of all the needs in the Canadian military -- and we have decades of negligence -- submarines are what we need least.
Oh, the Navy loves submarines -- an exotic toy.

But Canada fought two wars without subs, and no Canadian submarine has ever fired a torpedo -- a sub's primary weapon.
Even if they functioned okay under water (they don't), they aren't needed.
Former defence minister Art Eggleton, who was in charge when the subs were acquired, waxed lavish in their praise -- as does his successor, Bill Graham, who thinks subs are vital for sovereignty.

Even former defence minister David Pratt calls subs a "vital component" to our Navy, and that Canada "got a great deal" on them. Phooey. They were initially to be a "gift."
As for "politics" in military matters, when has it ever been otherwise?
What is a declared quota system for women, aboriginals, visible minorities in the military if not "political?"

Does anyone think the Chretien government paying $500 million in penalty fees to cancel the Tory decision to buy state-of-the-art EH101 helicopters wasn't pure politics? Buying a cheaper replacement a decade later was also crass politics.
We bought a crappy, costly Italian truck made in Kelowna for the military, instead of a cheaper, better military truck made by GM. More politics.
The Iltis replacement for the Jeep was a political decision -- a vehicle since rejected by the Afghan army when we tried to give it away. There's now an Iltis graveyard in Kabul.

Back to submarines. If we were truly keen on subs being an integral part of coastal defence, why in 1996 did the Navy court martial its best and most experienced submariner on trumped up charges?
Lt.-Cdr. Dean Marsaw had to go on a hunger strike and rouse public outrage before the Navy backed down on charges that couldn't be proved.

That's got to tell you something about our Navy, if not submarines.
When it was first mentioned a decade ago, the submarine deal was depicted as too good to refuse.
Using that argument, I suppose Canada would be tempted to equip the infantry with vintage Lee Enfield rifles if they could be bought cheaply, instead of automatic assault rifles ... or medieval suits of armour instead of Kevlar body armour if they were cheap.

That's sort of what we did when we purchased the outdated Leopard I tanks when the Germans graduated to a more advanced model.
Today, the sinkable subs are being blamed on Jean Chretien -- everyone's fall guy. Even Paul Martin blames Chretien for every lapse, hoping that'll be enough to save his own job. Submarines are yet another reason to vote out the Liberals.

...now I don't know much about subs, except to say that i disagree with Mr. Worthington here, I believe they are an absolute necessity.



 
And he is wrong.

Canada did not fight the world wars without subs.  We owned a sub, and it was based in Halifax.  Mind you, it was not used for offensive patrols, it was used to train the surface warfare types how to detect and fight submarines.  Much like we used the Oberons for, and presumably, would use the Upholders for.
 
IMHO, Canada only has conventional subs so that we can play at games with the Americans and train our own ASW units, because we are known as "Experts" in so few fields we do not want to lose bragging rights on any points, fine.

Having said that, I do not believe that conventional subs are worth the money for Canada. Since a large portion of our sovereign territory is covered with ice, our conventional subs are useless for any of these missions.

Perhaps keep two of the best Victoria class subs for training, but purchase a couple of small nuclear vessels, one on either coast that will be able to have a strategic effect on defense of sovereignty.
 
And the Sun family... basically one step above a supermarket tabloid.

 
Perhaps keep two of the best Victoria class subs for training, but purchase a couple of small nuclear vessels, one on either coast that will be able to have a strategic effect on defense of sovereignty

What will one on each coast accomplish? Pretty much nothing as the solitary unit they will be required everywhere and everywhere at once. As has been said before naval warware operates in 3 dimensions above, below and on the surface. If you remove one aspect your navy {and military for that matter} loses a great deal of what makes a navy versatile.

 
Dragoon, the idea was not to take away any other Naval capability but to offer a minimum effect force.
 
Blue Max said:
Dragoon, the idea was not to take away any other Naval capability but to offer a minimum effect force.

A single sub on each coast accomplishes nothing...nuclear or not.  Submarines ( an indee naval ships as a whole) require long  periods along side for rfits and maintenance.  In order to keep one SSN on patrol you require at least 2 or better yet 3 in your inventory. One sub on patrol, one returning( going to maintenance) and one more available to keep the cycle going when one of the subs goes into long term refit.
 
The media will always bitch about something, it will never change.  They were silent when the liberals cancelled the helo contract, they were silent when they introduced the new contract.

They killed the airborne, for god who knows what reason.

I think DND has to get off their asses, and start to promote our military.  Hell if it weren't for the subs, I would bet most Canadians would be surprised to know that we have a Navy.

I just wish that the political games would stop interfering with our military.
 
aesop081 said:
In order to keep one SSN on patrol you require at least 2 or better yet 3 in your inventory. One sub on patrol, one returning( going to maintenance) and one more available to keep the cycle going when one of the subs goes into long term refit.

How does 4 conventional subs help us? It would seem that we only have enough to do the job on one of three coasts.
 
Blue Max said:
How does 4 conventional subs help us? It would seem that we only have enough to do the job on one of three coasts.

Very true but one of the reasons was to establish a subsurface presence on the west coast.  But why do with less? Why get an SSN when all it would do is win the ire of the Canadian public. we need to stay within our means when it comes to submarines and SSKs are just that.
 
It appears to me that Mr Worthington (judging by the tone of his article), has learned everything that he knows about submarines from Hollywood movies about WWII.  Unfortunately, he is like most Canadians.

It is not immediately evident to outsiders what submarines bring to a Navy.  To me, they are the ultimate stealth machine.  Contrary to popular belief, they are anything but blind- they are very much in tune with what is going on around them in the ocean. They are all offense- the very teeth of our Navy. Just owning them brings us a wealth of information that we would not otherwise be entitled to see from our allies.  they help train our surface fleet, air forces and our allies.  Should we be in situation where we are in a shooting war against another country, well, the best ASW platform is another submarine and they really screw up the plans of a surface navy (just ask the Argentineans about that).

Contrary to what Mr Worthington believes, almost every Navy (1st, 2nd and 3rd world) is acquiring, or upgrading submarines.  Just peruse Janes if you doubt me.

You can take this from a guy who has actually been in a submarine (alongside), hunted them, and found them.  I know a bit about how they work.  Unlike Mr Worthington.

Cheers.

 
Well put SKT.......

I'm learning how to hunt them right now.....hopefully i can find them as well !
 
For a former soldier Mr Worthington certainly has not done the CF any favours lately.
 
Just to piss PW off, I hope the new JSS is actually a giant submarine which spews its pay load out of a set of huge torpedo tubes. 
 
Worthington has never got past being a platoon leader in Korea. If it doesn't directly support the PPCLI, it is a waste of money. Just reading his stuff on the Vandoos is a good lesson on how regimental rivalries can go too far.
He also has a bad habit of rewriting history to fit his storyline. Calling Marsaw Canada's "best and most experienced submariner"? He sure did not spend a lot of time researching that story.
 
Keeping subs will allow us to keep the skill set they require both to operate and hunt. Operation also inludes maint which is very specialized and has a very steep learning curve. We are still recovering from the loss of our subs.

As for checking facts I have before me a picture of submarines CC1 and CC2 moored in Esquimalt c. 1915.
 
whiskey601 said:
Just to piss PW off, I hope the new JSS is actually a giant submarine which spews its pay load out of a set of huge torpedo tubes.  

Damn it whiskey that was suppose to be a secret...watch out for the black helicopters man ;)
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Damn it whiskey that was suppose to be a secret...watch out for the black helicopters man ;)


Ex-D...don't open the door for another senseless JTF thread ...... ;D
 
Well, I heard that JTF-2 is working on a 2 man submersible that gets shot out of a torpedo tube at mach-holy-crap....That's the only reason Canada bought subs in the first place... at least that's what I heard.

CHIMO, Kat

PS Stand down Pat, you opened the door... ;D
 
Kat Stevens said:
Well, I heard that JTF-2 is working on a 2 man submersible that gets shot out of a torpedo tube at mach-holy-crap....That's the only reason Canada bought subs in the first place... at least that's what I heard.

CHIMO, Kat

PS Stand down Pat, you opened the door... ;D

Kat...thats funny....... :P
 
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