Women in U.S. infantry (USMC, Rangers, etc. - merged)

[tomahawk6]

As combat ban is lifted for women, watch this talk from a female master sergeant

The Pentagon announced earlier this week that it was lifting the ban on women in combat positions in the U.S. military. And today Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta and General Martin E. Dempsey shared with The New York Times why they made this historic decision. For both of them, it came down having met and talked to many women capably and bravely performing difficult posts. Said Panetta, “To go out now and to see women performing the roles that they are performing and doing a great job at it, I think it just encouraged me. I think it encouraged all of us that everybody should have a chance to perform at any mission, if they can meet the qualifications.”

These words made me think of this powerful TEDx talk from airwoman Jennifer J. Allara, an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware.

“Iraq and Afghanistan — if you’ve been there, you have a story,” says Master Sergeant Allara in this talk given at TEDxScottAFB. “Mine starts at zero three thirty. For those of you who don’t know military time, that’s 3:30 am.”

In this talk, Allara tells the story of her final mission in Afghanistan, the comrade who didn’t make it through and how that day has affected her for years to come. She tells this emotional story to stress the importance of soldiers recognizing when they are not okay and need to seek help for the complicated emotions and thoughts that swirl around them. Allara encourages people to simply ask each other: are you okay?


http://blog.ted.com/2013/01/25/as-combat-ban-is-lifted-for-women-watch-this-tedx-talk-from-a-female-master-sergeant/

Peter Principle on full display.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Peter Principle on full display.

:rofl:

Actually, in this case I think it would be called the 'Paula Principle':

Young women, especially those with good qualifications, now have a really good chance of matching their male counterparts at the start of their careers. They certainly have more options than their predecessors. But, as time goes by, the pay gap widens and the career paths increasingly diverge.

This happens in spite of women taking part more than men in vocational training and so increasing what might be called the competence gap. While this is partly because women work more in the public sector, which is a more generous trainer, I also believe it is because women are readier than men to acknowledge to themselves and others that they don't have all the skills necessary to do the job well.


http://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2014/jan/16/paula-principle-part-time-holding-women-back

And of course there's a consultant ready to help you address this issue:  ;D

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4788

 

[The Bread Guy]

Note the bit in yellow from this article - they're inviting female candidates, but haven't decided if they can do the course yet ....

The Army is looking for female soldiers who want to volunteer to attend Ranger school.

The call-out is part of the Army’s ongoing effort to determine whether and how to open combat arms military occupational specialties to women.

Senior Army leaders are expected to decide in January if they want to move forward with this one-time, integrated Ranger school assessment. If the assessment moves forward, it likely will take place in the spring, and the Army will need volunteers already in place and ready to go, officials said Friday.

If the assessment takes place, it will be a first for the storied Ranger school, which until now has been open only to men ....

 

[tomahawk6]

I don't support women at Ranger School because they will have to lower the standards if a female is going to graduate.Its one of the most physically demanding courses in the Army,one that many men fail to graduate from.

Currently, the RTB closely monitors candidate performance at the school, and notes the following statistical details about course failures/dropouts:
•60% of all Ranger School failures occur in the first 3 days (“RAP Week”): RPFT, Land Nav, Footmarch, CWSA.
•30% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Personal Reasons: Admin, Lack of Motivation, Special Circumstances.
•10% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Academics: Patrols, Peers, Serious Observation Report, Medical Issues. •Only 2.2% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols (Academic).
•Only 5% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols, Patrols/Peers, Patrols/Peers/Spots (Academic).

•50.13% Overall Graduation Rate last 6 years (FY 06-FY 11) 3
•37.2% Ranger Graduates Recycle at least 1x Phase of Ranger School
•75% of those who complete RAP week will eventually pass the Darby Phase and move on to the Mountain Phase. Darby Recycle Rate is approximately 15%.
•94% of those who start the Mountain Phase will eventually pass and move on to the Florida Phase. Mountain Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.
•98% of those who start Florida Phase will eventually pass and graduate Ranger School. Florida Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Would you support it IF (yes I know unlikely) they kept the standards the same?

 

[tomahawk6]

I would be more inclined to do so,however I havent seen a female soldier/officer who could pass the course without lowering standards.The Army did the same at Jump School so they would be assured of having female graduates.Below is an excerpt from a SGM's welcome letter.I almost forgot the water obstacle confidence course.LDAC is for ROTC cadets.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwrBT8clDxdUU5wAeGJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0anZkcm9zBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQzOV8x?p=Ranger+School+water+obstacle+course

The three events that cause most students to recycle or fail Ranger School are the Ranger Physical Fitness Test (49x Push-ups, 59x Sit-ups, 5-mile run in under 40x minutes, and 6x Pull-ups) land navigation, and foot march. Success in those events significantly increases your chance of graduating.

 

[PanaEng]

Piece of cake! I personally know at lest 6 Female officers/ncm in the engineers that can do that every other day, even if you add another 4 pull-ups (which the hardest part for females.)

 

[tomahawk6]

5 mile run under 40 minutes and the 12 mile road march ? Impressive.

 

[PanaEng]

5 mile run under 40 minutes and the 12 mile road march ? Impressive.

Here are two of them; another one aced the Sapper course a couple of years ago and another one is fitter than her SOF boyfriend (according to him)...
https://www.facebook.com/100533039582/photos/a.10152684702454583.1073741890.100533039582/10152684703199583/?type=1&fref=nf
They came in 22nd and 23rd; beating about 150 other soldiers from the Bde and CSOR (the SF regiment) with a time of 7:10:43hrs!!
http://www.sportstats.ca/displayResults.xhtml?racecode=107094
That competition consists of carrying a pack of 40lbs for 50km total:  32km run, 4km carrying a canoe, 8km paddling and 6km run to the finish.

 

[PuckChaser]

On a sidenote: Bde Comd finishes 33/188.... great way to encourage fitness is to lead from the front!

 

[Shrek1985]

I'd suggest anyone truely interested in this subject read Tom Kratman's Amazon Legion and The Amazon's Right Breast.

These are probably the two best-thought out, most pragmatic works ever produced on the subject of training women for the military, including a "Ranger" course.

http://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Legion-Desert-Called-Peace/dp/1451638132/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411491303&sr=8-1&keywords=amazon+legion

http://www.baenebooks.com/p-1386-free-nonfiction-2011.aspx

men and women are not the same, that's the beginning end of it. There is much both can do and much the cannot both do.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Royal Marines had a woman pass the Commando Course, although it was more of a publicity stunt than an intention to recruit women into 3 Cdo Bde:

Military history was made yesterday when a female soldier won the green beret of the Royal Marines.

Capt Philippa "Pip" Tattersall, 27, completed the eight-week commando course, regarded as one of the toughest military tests in the world, at her third and final attempt.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1395974/First-woman-wins-Marines-green-beret.html

At least they can say 'sure woman can try it out if they want' without changing the standards.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Just to confirm. Same standard?

 

[Remius]

Just to confirm. Same standard?

let's be clear as to what she accomplished (it is impressive yes but...)

"The 10-week All Arms Commando Course she passed is completely different to the 42-week course that Royal Marine commandos must pass. It qualifies her only for the army units that support 3 Commando Brigade, all of which are already open to women who pass the course."

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Thanks for the knowledge drop

 

[daftandbarmy]

let's be clear as to what she accomplished (it is impressive yes but...)

"The 10-week All Arms Commando Course she passed is completely different to the 42-week course that Royal Marine commandos must pass. It qualifies her only for the army units that support 3 Commando Brigade, all of which are already open to women who pass the course."

Ummm.... I passed the AACC and served with 45 Cdo as a Coy 2IC.

I know I was only a Coy HQ weenie but I think I was doing most of the things that 'Royal' did (except rocking the fishnets ... there's some things a Sandhurst man just shouldn't do  ;D).

All of our FOO/FAC teams, Engineers and other like that were pretty mush army guys doing the 'Marine thing' too... some of them with a lot more to do than a rifleman.

 

[Old Sweat]

DB, it is my impassion that the long course is also what we would call a DP course and goes from walking into the front gate to last post or "here's your beret."

It still is a major accomplishment and I this officer.

 

[x_para76]

let's be clear as to what she accomplished (it is impressive yes but...)

"The 10-week All Arms Commando Course she passed is completely different to the 42-week course that Royal Marine commandos must pass. It qualifies her only for the army units that support 3 Commando Brigade, all of which are already open to women who pass the course."

The Royal Marine Commando course is 32 weeks. Let's not give those cabbage heads too much credit.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Royal Marine Commando course is 32 weeks. Let's not give those cabbage heads too much credit.

Precisely.  :nod:

 

[x_para76]

Here are two of them; another one aced the Sapper course a couple of years ago and another one is fitter than her SOF boyfriend (according to him)...
https://www.facebook.com/100533039582/photos/a.10152684702454583.1073741890.100533039582/10152684703199583/?type=1&fref=nf
They came in 22nd and 23rd; beating about 150 other soldiers from the Bde and CSOR (the SF regiment) with a time of 7:10:43hrs!!
http://www.sportstats.ca/displayResults.xhtml?racecode=107094
That competition consists of carrying a pack of 40lbs for 50km total:  32km run, 4km carrying a canoe, 8km paddling and 6km run to the finish.

No doubt those are two extremely fit woman. The problem is how do you successfully integrate them into a battalion of 600 men? I know that this subject has already been discussed here and I don't recall anyone actually coming up with a viable solution.