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Women in U.S. infantry (USMC, Rangers, etc. - merged)

LittleMagellan said:
Haha that was a great post... made me laugh... completely the reality. I've probably seen more porn (well music videos that you could definitely classify as porn) being watched in the wardroom than I saw on PAT in Gagetown. I actually turn the music-porn on frequently just to fuck with the guys. Now they wonder if I'm gay and it throws them for a loop. Haha people and their stereotypes. It's fun messing with that.

Well my first posting was with the Navy; if you think you've seen a lot of "porn" there, you obviously haven't been to Alert.  BTW, I wouldn't classify any music video as 'porn' --- not even a Miss Miley twerking her ass onto one Mr Thicke at the VMAs totally topless.

On your earlier post wrt to bullying - it takes place everywhere and isn't limited to bullying women.  All of which has SFA to do with the ability (or inability) of a woman to successfully meet the standard/do the job of being an infanteer.

One of the girls I went through with is now a C2 on a ship that shall not be named; she's been out (of the closet) since the get-go and hasn't experienced any issues much like I have not.  Then again, her attitude is much like mine:  there is a time for work and a time for play, don't mess with people and stay professional.  After all, what you find "messing with" someone else may find harassing.

Professionalism is key.  Keep the standards and don't lower them.  Stay professional.  If a chick makes it in that environment - good on her.  If she doesn't, the door won't then hit her ass any harder than it does the males who also didn't make the professional cut.  All the rest is political, religious and emotional bullshit.
 
Sweet Jesus.


Its infantryman.  Not infanteer.  That's a silly, made up word that conjures up images of professional babies (infants) in my mind.

Infantryman.

Infantryman.

Infantryman.

Please, think of the children.
 
Anyone's Grunt said:
Sweet Jesus.


Its infantryman.  Not infanteer.  That's a silly, made up word that conjures up images of professional babies (infants) in my mind.

Infantryman.

Infantryman.

Infantryman.

Please, think of the children.

That wasn't even a mediocre troll.

But it was a troll nonetheless.

Stop it.

---Staff---
 
When I went through Cornwallis in 1988, about 2/3 of the women in my platoon were CREW Trial going to the Patricias - second or third platoon IIRC.  At that point, only one girl had made it through and ended up with 3VP.  None of the women off my course made it through...a lot actually ended up as medics incidentally.  Having said that, I'd say at least 1/2 of the guys that went there ended up recoursed for physical or medical reasons, and some ended up failing battleschool outright for the same reasons.  The standards didn't change for anyone.  Flash forward to about 1995 - I was chatting to my amb partner from my tour with 1VP while their rifle company was on the rappel tower in Calgary - there were 3 young women getting into their Swiss seats.  I had a chat with a friend of mine that was augmentee staff to Wainwright who noted that there were noticeable changes to the standards, as men and women alike were making it through that really shouldn't have.  Then my mother the Women's Historian started in about defining roles and such and how they should change the role to meet the people fulfilling that role...that stopped when I told her in the end that you still will have to toss that ruck on your back and haul it over hill and dale when your APC breaks.  I guess my point is this - regardless of gender, if you can do the job, you should be able to, but if you can't, then you shouldn't.  If the capabilities are well defined as far as what's expected, it's a no brainer - you either meet those standards or you don't, regardless of your primary/secondary sex characteristics.

:2c:

MM
 
medicineman said:
...I guess my point is this - regardless of gender, if you can do the job, you should be able to, but if you can't, then you shouldn't.  If the capabilities are well defined as far as what's expected, it's a no brainer - you either meet those standards or you don't, regardless of your primary/secondary sex characteristics.

:2c:

MM

+300
 
medicineman said:
I had a chat with a friend of mine that was augmentee staff to Wainwright who noted that there were noticeable changes to the standards, as men and women alike were making it through that really shouldn't have.  Then my mother the Women's Historian started in about defining roles and such and how they should change the role to meet the people fulfilling that role...that stopped when I told her in the end that you still will have to toss that ruck on your back and haul it over hill and dale when your APC breaks.  I guess my point is this - regardless of gender, if you can do the job, you should be able to, but if you can't, then you shouldn't.  If the capabilities are well defined as far as what's expected, it's a no brainer - you either meet those standards or you don't, regardless of your primary/secondary sex characteristics.

I generally agree with your observations and points but simply want to add a caution at this time about changing standards.

I was recently researching the issue of the amount of kit a soldier in Afghanistan is required to carry and came across a PowerPoint presentation from the 2nd Bn 504 Para Inf Regt that stated in part the following: A. FM 21-18 stated that the fighting load of a conditioned soldier should not exceed 48 lbs and that for the approach march should not exceed 72 lbs. B. In fact the average paratrooper weighed 185 lbs and his average 72 hr kit weighed 104 lbs or 55% of his own weight. Not stated was that this percentage varied when the soldier was not "average" weight. For example a 150 lb soldier would be carrying 66% of his own weight.

This raises numerous questions not the least of which is what actually is the standard: FM weights? % of body weight? recent weights from Afghanistan?. Are we breaking our standards and overloading our troops and thus risking their health? Or have the standards changed forever?

As far as equality is concerned remember two things:

First, the FM standard here is based on what an individual can safely carry while the 504th's actual loads are based on perceived needs for operations. Which is the proper one when it comes to assessing the fitness of any individual (male or female) to be eligible to be a member of an organization?

Second, be wary of artificial standards set by an organization which the leaders have deemed to be bona fide operational requirements. In years past as women where entering both police and fire department ranks there were an ungodly amount of unrealistic standards set which were designed primarily to keep women candidates out of the force. Needless to say these standards were set and administered by men in the organization who were adamant that there was no role for women in these trades. It took numerous human rights based hearings to break down these mostly artificial and systemically discriminatory barriers.

Back in my day one carried 64 pattern webbing and an FNC1 and the expected mode of fighting was that one travelled everywhere in an APC and then went out to fight with a very light fighting load that was less than 30 lbs. (yes we also had marching loads etc and humping packs was not unknown) A fair cross section of women could have managed that. My point here is not to start a debate on loads but merely to point out that standards and requirements vary.

In some ways I take your mom's point of view.  Sometimes we have to make a difficult choice. Is human equality more important than occupational standards (whether artificial or bona fide)? Sometimes the need to provide all of our citizens equally opportunities may justify the extra efforts and even possible negative outcomes. In the end that is a political question answered with input from all the relevant stakeholders.

The Marines are not the best example when it comes to equality. In 1941 as expansion of the Marines was being discussed, including the use of Negroes, the then commandant of the Marines was adamant that African Americans had no right to serve in the Marines and that "If it were a question of having a Marine Corps of 5,000 whites or 250,000 Negroes, I would rather have the whites.". It took an executive order by the President to end racial discrimination and even then, the Marines did not desegregate and black Marines served in all-black units and sub-units until after Korea when desegregation slowly moved to completeness by 1960. I would take anything coming from the Marines on female integration in the combat arms with a large barrel of salt.

Regardless of the equality issue I think it is high time we took a serious look at what we need to do to lighten the load of our combat troops before we cripple an entire generation. Considering how questionable the US VA and our own veterans' systems are at working for our modern veterans, I don't doubt that there will be an upcoming crisis for those with back and other joint degenerative issues.

:cheers:
 
Just a point on the marines
It took an executive order by the President to end racial discrimination and even then, the Marines did not desegregate and black Marines served in all-black units and sub-units until after Korea when desegregation slowly moved to completeness by 1960.

In 1965 there was zip in the way of racial discrimination that I or the guys around me saw....we didn't care if you were black, white, poka dot....you had our back.

As to the loads...I weighed 169 when I landed in Viet Nam....3 months later I was 131. The average patrol load was 70 to 90 lbs. (ammo and C-rations was the difference).

If I had had those stats I could have argued for  a lighter load....where were you!!  ;D
 
FJAG said:
Regardless of the equality issue I think it is high time we took a serious look at what we need to do to lighten the load of our combat troops before we cripple an entire generation. Considering how questionable the US VA and our own veterans' systems are at working for our modern veterans, I don't doubt that there will be an upcoming crisis for those with back and other joint degenerative issues.

:cheers:

Here's an idea:

Confine infantry/ ground combat to the PlayStation  ;D
 
Women not fit for infantry: female USMC Captain


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1821296256001/are-women-unfit-for-infantry-duty/

 
daftandbarmy said:
Women not fit for infantry: female USMC Captain

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1821296256001/are-women-unfit-for-infantry-duty/

Just a "news" story (and Faux news at that) of one woman's opinion and previously posted here:

ObedientiaZelum said:
This USMC Captain gives some examples of why she doesn't think women should be in the infantry from experience.

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal
 
Well if it's fear of standards being dropped...
Have the army rangers lowered their standards?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/07/10/has-the-army-rangers-lowered-its-standards/

Something I noticed during dp1 infantry was a lack of defined standards. Granted some stuff should be left up to the staff as every group is different. But when the final ex is different for all three courses and some courses ruck to and from the ranges while others get bussed out to and from the ranges, there should then be a set standard. As laziness from staff members can contribute to quantity over quality. And the mentality that our warrant had, no doubt from higher ups was "my goal is to see all of you graduate." While commendable and desirable it is a ridiculous notion. The stated goal should have been " my goal is to graduate those who deserve it".  IMO the CF needs more quality control, though I did feel we were (our courses) experiments to see which came closer to the desired end result. That being said what is the desired results? Numbers or quality? Obviously a balance thereof is the target but that's not what I feel the goal of the CF is. I believe with all "businesses" you can have bad investments and sometimes you just have to cut them. Which unions and government have a hard time doing.

And if anyone's interested as to the results of the varying courses:
Physical course: pass rate of 55-60%,  of those I would consider 65% being effective soldiers once well integrated into battalion life
Mental course, what I mean by mental course. Is the amount of extra drill, polishing aka general bs: pass rate 80-85% of those I would consider 90% of being effective battalion soldiers. Upon a few weeks/months of battalion pt.

Interesting results given the nature of an infantry soldiers job. Though I think the numbers better reflect the courses recruits rather than the training system. Somehow all the reservists, previous fails and known pumps ended up on one course together. And the other course had a lot of known switched on guys. With the obvious gray filler men. Did that happen by accident, not likely. Is the CF really that efficient/smart, doubtful. Are they likely to keep me guessing, yes.

Also the numbers game the army likes to play is just another reason why our sof forces should not go under army control. Not too mention how much the Byzantine labyrinth chain of command of the army would slow down said sof forces. As I know the inside debate has recently been made public.

(I know I went off on a bit of a tangent, feel free to move. Thought the article was relevant to previous posts)
 
Ranger School does not yet accept female soldiers as far as I know. Ranger School operates on a point system.Every student starts with 1000 points and it takes a minimum of 700 to graduate.There are ways to get bonus points,but losing points is the norm.Its a voluntary school so if you can't hack it you can quit.Again the common occurrence are accidents ranging from sprains,breaks and dislocated shoulders.

Currently, the RTB closely monitors candidate performance at the school, and notes the following statistical details about course failures/dropouts:

60% of all Ranger School failures occur in the first 3 days (“RAP Week”): RPFT, Land Nav, Footmarch, CWSA.

30% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Personal Reasons: Admin, Lack of Motivation, Special Circumstances.

10% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Academics: Patrols, Peers, Serious Observation Report, Medical Issues.

Only 2.2% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols (Academic).

Only 5% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols, Patrols/Peers, Patrols/Peers/Spots (Academic).

50.13% Overall Graduation Rate last 6 years (FY 06-FY 11)

37.2% Ranger Graduates Recycle at least 1x Phase of Ranger School

75% of those who complete RAP week will eventually pass the Darby Phase and move on to the Mountain Phase. Darby Recycle Rate is approximately 15%.

94% of those who start the Mountain Phase will eventually pass and move on to the Florida Phase. Mountain Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.

98% of those who start Florida Phase will eventually pass and graduate Ranger School. Florida Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.

A sergeant-major’s welcome letter notes the following:

The three events that cause most students to recycle or fail Ranger School are the Ranger Physical Fitness Test (49x Push-ups, 59x Sit-ups, 5-mile run in under 40x minutes, and 6x Pull-ups) land navigation, and foot march. Success in those events significantly increases your chance of graduating.

To that I might add the  Combat Water Survival Assessment .
 
Women in Battle
The Female Soldier

Abstract: Since the 1970s, women have been increasingly integrated into the military; in Iraq and Afghanistan many women served on the frontline in combat. This article argues women’s integration has been facilitated by the all-volunteer professional forces in which individuals are judged purely by competence. Female soldiers have been accepted in all military roles if they perform competently. There are serious limitations in the infantry, however, as only a small number of women pass the selection tests and it is likely no more than one percent of the infantry could be female at present. Moreover, masculine prejudices abound and women are still the victims of discrimination, harassment, and abuse.

The accession of women into the United States combat arms, announced on 24 January 2013 by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta following a unanimous decision by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has been welcomed by many. The decision, however, remains controversial and there are some who oppose it. Indeed, Martin van Creveld, a long-standing opponent of female integration, has anticipated some arguments that opponents of integration may use. Van Creveld claims that not only are male soldiers “often obliged to undertake additional hardship in order to compensate for women’s physical weakness” but because women are weaker, “for them [men] to undergo military training and serve alongside women represents a humiliation.”1 For van Creveld, the inclusion of women into the armed forces corrodes the bonds among male soldiers, vitiating the honor of service. Indeed, David Frum, a contributing editor of Newsweek recently rejected Panetta’s ruling on similar grounds. Citing Kingsley Browne’s work Co-ed Combat: The New Evidence That Women Shouldn’t Fight the Nation’s Wars, Frum argues that women are too weak physically to perform as combat soldiers and they undermine the cohesiveness of all-male groups. Even women who are strong enough to serve in combat present a problem because the armed forces, focused on war-winning (not employment equality), are unable to apply gender-blind standards to women; they cannot treat them equally and tend to be too lenient. If van Creveld, Browne, and Frum are right, Leon Panetta and the Joint Chiefs of Staff have made a serious mistake.

Anthony King is a professor of Sociology at the University of Exeter, UK, and is currently a visiting fellow at All Souls College Oxford. He has published widely on the military and has acted as an adviser and mentor to the armed forces for many years, including as a member of ISAF Regional Command South's Prism Cell, 2009-10.

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/Issues/Summer_2013/2_King_Article.pdf

 
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20130925/NEWS/309250012/15-female-Marines-report-enlisted-infantry-training

15 female Marines report for enlisted infantry training
Sep. 25, 2013 - 11:14AM  | 
3 Comments

QUANTICO, VA. — Fifteen female Marines began enlisted infantry training this week as part of the Marine Corps’ ongoing research into which additional jobs it should open to female personnel, officials said.

The women will attend the Infantry Training Battalion course at Camp Geiger, N.C., on an experimental basis, focusing on the 0311 infantry rifleman program of instruction after the first few weeks of training, said Leon Pappa, a retired lieutenant colonel with Training and Education Command who oversees the research. They will not receive the 0311 military occupational specialty if they graduate, but Marine officials will note it in their record for tracking purposes.

“We’re not changing the standards on how we track performance,” Pappa told reporters in a meeting here Wednesday. “We’re doing it the same way we do it for the males.”

The research at ITB is the newest part of the Corps’ assessment of which jobs should be open to women. It came after then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta overturned the longstanding policy excluding women from serving in direct combat assignments last year.

The research is similar to work that began here last year at the Infantry Officer Course. Female volunteers have been allowed to try the grueling course, but none has passed. The next version of IOC begins next week, and the Corps expects four female volunteers to participate, Pappa said.

The women who will attend enlisted infantry training at Camp Geiger come straight from boot camp graduation at Parris Island, S.C., Pappa said. Some 114 women graduated there earlier this month. Of those, 42 met physical requirements to go to ITB, he said. Nineteen volunteered, but the number had dropped to 15 as of this week. The women are allowed to drop out at any point and move on to their planned military career.
 
One option would perhaps be to have all female infantry battalions. I believe that it's something that the Russians did during the Second World War.
 
X_para76 said:
One option would perhaps be to have all female infantry battalions. I believe that it's something that the Russians did during the Second World War.

Really?

Let's have you lay out the timelines, finances and logistics of creating a complete US infantry battalion of women.

All qualified to the current standard, led by the proper female officer corps for said battalion.

If you can, somehow, manage to even present a viable approximation to those four criteria, a person might be inclined to give your suggestion some thought.

As it stands, your suggestion is akin to saying "why not stand up a star fleet of ninjasniper warriors"

The reason the Russians were able to do it was because if you weren't making arms in Russia at the time, you were using them.

The US is not nationally mobilized and on total war footing. They're broke and have no stomach for a grand social experiment doomed to failure, from within.
 
X_para76 said:
One option would perhaps be to have all female infantry battalions.

Segregation?  As well, the US is downsizing their military, so creating new battalions isn't an option.

Also, I doubt there will be enough females volunteering for Infantry to fill a battalion.  At this time, they are only allowing females to go on the courses, before continuing on to their MOS school.  If a female completes the Infantry course, they do not get the Infantry MOS and are not employed in that role(at this time).

X_para76 said:
I believe that it's something that the Russians did during the Second World War.

AFAIK, there were some all female units(such as aviation), but none were Infantry battalions.
 
X_para76 said:
One option would perhaps be to have all female infantry battalions.
There are always some folks whose strength seems to be coming up with the throw-away COA. 
 
X_para76 said:
One option would perhaps be to have all female infantry battalions. I believe that it's something that the Russians did during the Second World War.

The would be unstoppable for 1 week a month....

;D
 
Journeyman said:
There are always some folks whose strength seems to be coming up with the throw-away COA.

Wait a second now, I think this idea has some weight.  We could call them the Pre Menstrual Battalion, only launching them into battle four days a month.  They'd be devastating!  Of course they'd need to be RIP'd after four days, before they spent the next twenty seven or so days apologizing to the enemy for being such bitches.
 
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