Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[Haggis]

Going back to the beginning of this thread and the news article that spawned it, it's interesting to note that the comments regarding equal pay were made by Naval Reservists.

The Naval and Air Reserve are, by far, more equaly aligned in terms of training equivalency and employability.  For instance, Air Reserve members must complete the exact same rank and trade courses as the Regular Force counterparts.

Can the Army say that?  No.  Can the CIC say that???  No, again.  So the argument of a pan CF Reserve policy engendering equal pay for equal work of equal value is pointless for this reason alone.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Not a different kettle of fish, and I'm not starting anything.  It is a legitimate comment, and question.

The CIC is part of the ResF.  They would be included in any acts amending the ResF pay structure.

Yes different kettle of fish as they deal children and IMHO should not be paid on par with the Reg Force or with that of the P.Res, they should have their own pay scales.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Going back to the beginning of this thread and the news article that spawned it, it's interesting to note that the comments regarding equal pay were made by Naval Reservists.

The Naval and Air Reserve are, by far, more equaly aligned in terms of training equivalency and employability.  For instance, Air Reserve members must complete the exact same rank and trade courses as the Regular Force counterparts.

Can the Army say that?  No.  Can the CIC say that???  No, again.  So the argument of a pan CF Reserve policy engendering equal pay for equal work of equal value is pointless for this reason alone.

Haggis this is now changing too for the Army.

As an example:

In the Engineer world the Reg. Force QL3/DP1/Section Member/What ever the flavour of the day is +/- 6 months or so while the P.Res QL3/DP1/Section Member/What ever the flavour of the day is now split into 2 parts of 6 weeks each, and that equals the Reg Force course.

 

[IntlBr]

Yes, Sapper, I understand that is how you feel about the situation, but what I'm stating is the reality.  Would you be on board for pan ResF pay raises if you knew it was pan ResF?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Personally I'm content with staus quo.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Sapper, as members of the primary reserve CIC officers can also compete for and be placed on Class B contracts.

 

[Pikache]

Sapper, as members of the primary reserve CIC officers can also compete for and be placed on Class B contracts.

well, now I'm curious.

exactly what courses do CIC officers take that makes them remotely as qualified to do tasks as res officers?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I realize that Reccesoldier that's why I said IMHO

:cheers:

 

[armyvern]

Sapper, as members of the primary reserve CIC officers can also compete for and be placed on Class B contracts.

CIC Officers are not Primary Reservists, but are Reservists.

They are not eligible for BClass contracts unless in a position directly supporting the Canadian Cadet Movement. These rules changed a few years ago. They are also not deployable in the CIC capacity as a ResF member (even should they volunteer to do so).

 

[IntlBr]

Reccesoldier, I'm afraid you're a bit confused.. the CIC is its own part of the ResF, and is seperate and distinct from the PRes.  That said, they can still (and do) work Class B contracts like the rest of the ResF.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

CIC Officers are not Primary Reservists, but are Reservists.

They are not eligible for BClass contracts unless in a position directly supporting the Canadian Cadet Movement. These rules changed a few years ago. They are also not deployable in the CIC capacity as a ResF member (even should they volunteer to do so).

Right and with that they are a SUB- Component of the Reserves.

Composition of the Reserve Force

The Reserve Force is organized into four sub-components:

The Supplementary Reserve (Supp Res)

The primary purpose of the Supp Res is to augment the other components and sub-components of the CF with previously trained personnel in times of national emergency or mobilization. Its secondary purpose is to augment the other components and sub-components of the CF when required during normal peacetime situations.

The Supp Res consists of officers and non-commissioned members who are former members of any other component or sub-component of the CF. Selected personnel without previous military experience who have special skills or expertise for which there is a military requirement may also be members of the Supp Res. The Supp Res is managed by the Assistant Deputy Minister Human Resources (Military)

The Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC)

The Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC) consists of 6,000 commissioned officers of the Sea, Land and Air environments whose primary responsibility is the supervision, administration and training of Cadets. Many CIC Officers are former Cadets themselves. Other sources of enrolment in the CIC are interested parents of Cadets, and ex-members of the Regular Force and Primary Reserve. The CIC provides the majority of staff for the Cadet Summer Training Centres (CSTC) which operate in 27 locations across the country.

The Canadian Rangers

The Canadian Rangers are organized into patrol groups and patrols. These are assigned on a geographical basis to Land Force Command (LFC) and Canadian Forces Northern Area (CFNA) Headquarters (HQ). LFC HQ has delegated control of patrols down to the Area Headquarters which are responsible for domestic operations. Generally, the Rangers provide a military presence in those areas which cannot conveniently or economically be provided by other components of the Canadian Forces. Currently there are approximately 3000 personnel serving in the Canadian Rangers.

Members of the Canadian Rangers usually function individually and, in conjunction with their civilian occupations, perform the following tasks without pay:

· Report any suspicious or unusual activities in their respective areas; and

· Collect detailed information concerning their local area which may be of value to the Canadian Forces

Tasks, which the responsible commander may assign to members of the Canadian Rangers, are:

· Participating in Canadian Forces exercises

· Providing guides and rescue parties for military purposes

· Assisting in immediate local defence by containing or observing small enemy detachments pending the arrival of other forces

· Assisting the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) or provincial police in the discovery, reporting and apprehension of enemy agents or saboteurs

· Supporting Search and Rescue operations

The Primary Reserve (P Res)

The Primary Reserve consists of officers and non-commissioned members, who may be ordered to perform such duty and training as may be required of them. The Primary Reserve is composed of the following elements and has been assigned planning strengths as indicated:

· Naval Reserve 4000 — 5000

· Militia 18500 — 20500

· Air Reserve 3000 — 5000

· Communication Reserve 1000 — 1500

· NDHQ Primary Reserve List (PRL) 200 — 400

The Primary Reserve is commanded by the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) through the Commanders of the Commands, and in some cases through the Commanders of intermediate formations, in the same manner as the Regular Force. The NDHQ PRL is an organization which was established to provide administrative support to members of the Reserve that are employed within the NDHQ. It is administered by the Director Establishments and Personnel Requirements (DEPR).

 

[Reccesoldier]

I stand corrected.

 

[armyvern]

Reccesoldier, I'm afraid you're a bit confused.. the CIC is its own part of the ResF, and is seperate and distinct from the PRes.  That said, they can still (and do) work Class B contracts like the rest of the ResF.

No, not like the rest of the ResF, and quite unlike the PRes. The CIC are limited to BClass posns in direct support of the CCM as they are not members of the Primary Reserve (DAOD 5023-1 refers).

CANFORGEN 081/05 VCDS 016 270938Z APR 05 refers:

ANFORGEN 081/05 VCDS 016 270938Z APR 05
CLARIFICATION ON THE USE OF CADET INSTRUCTOR CADRE (CIC) OFFICERS OUTSIDE THE CANADIAN CADET MOVEMENT
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. DGRC MESSAGE 488 011853Z SEP 98
B. D RES MESSAGE 311 041411Z FEB 04

THIS MESSAGE REPLACES REFERENCE B. THE POLICY ON TERMS OF SERVICE FOR CIC OFFICERS HAS BEEN APPLIED INCONSISTENTLY OVER THE YEARS. WITH THE IMPENDING IMPLEMENTATION OF AN OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE FOR CIC OFFICERS SOME OF THE ISSUES REGARDING PERMISSIBLE USE OF CIC OFFRS WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE STILL MAY BE SOME AGENCIES OUTSIDE THE CCM WHO UNKNOWINGLY MISUSE MEMBERS OF THE CIC. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO REITERATE THE POLICY THAT CIC OFFICERS WILL NOT BE USED OUTSIDE THE CCM

THE PRIMARY DUTY OF A CIC OFFICER IS THE SAFETY, SUPERVISION, ADMINISTRATION, AND TRAINING OF CADETS. AS DEFINED IN QR&O 2.034(C), THE RAISON D'ETRE OF CIC OFFICERS IS TO BE EXPERTS IN YOUTH LEADERSHIP ON BEHALF OF THE CF

THE PURPOSE OF REFERENCE A WAS TO REMIND EMPLOYERS THAT THE CIC HAT BADGE IS NOT BE USED AS A BADGE OF CONVENIENCE TO ALLOW PERSONNEL TO LEAVE THE REGULAR FORCE OR THE PRIMARY RESERVE AT THE AGE OF 55 AND CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE IN THE CF WHILE WEARING THE CIC HAT BADGE AND CONTINUING IN THEIR SAME JOB UNTIL THE AGE OF 65 - THE CRA FOR CIC OFFICERS. THE MESSAGE STATED, IT IS ONLY WHEN HE/SHE IS EMPLOYED IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF CCO ACTIVITIES THAT A CIC OFFICER OR A SUPP RES MEMBER ATTACHED TO THE CIC MAY BE ON ACTIVE SERVICE UNTIL AGE 65. THE MESSAGE WENT ON TO STATE, ACTION ADDRESSES ARE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION TO ENSURE THAT ABUSES OF THIS TYPE CEASE IMMEDIATELY.

REFERENCE B WAS ISSUED TO REINFORCE REFERENCE A AND TO END THE INAPPROPRIATE USE OF CIC OFFICERS IN POSITIONS THAT ARE NOT IN SUPPORT OF THE CCM. IN REFERENCE B, DRES STATED, THE AIM OF THIS DIRECTION IS TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS OUTSIDE OF THE CCO ON NON-CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. EVENTUALLY CIC OFFICERS WILL BE USED ONLY IN CHIEF OF RESERVE AND CADETS DIVISION, CADET UNITS, REGIONAL CADET SUPPORT UNITS OR DETACHMENTS, CADET SUMMER TRAINING CENTERS (CSTCS), GLIDING SCHOOLS, SAIL CENTERS, AS STAFF OFFICERS ON PROJECTS OR IN OTHER STAFF POSITIONS THAT CAN BE DIRECTLY RELATED TO SUPPORT OF CIC OR CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. CIC OFFICERS WERE REMINDED THAT IF THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM, THEY SHOULD REQUEST A TRANSFER TO THE PRES

HENCEFORTH, CIC OFFICERS WILL ONLY BE USED ON CADET-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ONLY IN THOSE POSITIONS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH FOUR. NO CIC OFFICER CURRENTLY ON RESERVE SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM (OR FORMER CIC OFFICERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY ON THE SUPP RES OR ATTACHED FROM THE SUPP RES) WILL BE EXTENDED BEYOND THE COMPLETION OF HIS OR HER CURRENT ONE YEAR TERM OF SERVICE. QUESTIONS REGARDING PERMISSIBLE EMPLOYMENT ARE TO BE DIRECTED TO THE DRES STAFF AT DGRC. FURTHER, ALL REGIONAL COMMANDERS ARE TO CONDUCT A STAFF CHECK TO CONFIRM THAT ALL CIC OFFICERS ON THEIR ESTABLISHMENTS OCCUPY CIC POSITIONS AND THAT ALL THOSE CIC OFFICERS ARE WORKING IN POSITIONS THAT DIRECTLY SUPPORT THE CCM. YOUR STAFFS ARE TO INFORM BOTH DRES AND DCDTS OF THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BY 31 MAY 05.THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BE COMPARED WITH EXISTING RPSR DATA TO CONFIRM THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS WHO REMAIN EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE CCM

THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO REITERATE THE POLICY THAT CIC OFFICERS WILL NOT BE USED OUTSIDE THE CCM....

CIC OFFICERS WERE REMINDED THAT IF THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM, THEY SHOULD REQUEST A TRANSFER TO THE PRES....

 

[armyvern]

Right and with that they are a SUB- Component of the Reserves.

Then why did you agree with this post?? Note very carefully what he says ... Hint: look for the word "primary" !!  >

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/72153/post-690005.html#msg690005

 

[Nfld Sapper]

oopsie missed that point.

 

[armyvern]

oopsie missed that point.

I'm going to get the whip.  ;D

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I'm going to get the whip.  ;D

I might like it too much  ;D

 

[Stoker]

I guess when command made going to Scotian a mandatory event, they didn't count on the Minister being a pin cushion >. I guess i'll wade in on this one. I'm a reservist who have been full time for the last 14 years, over five of them been Class C. I have the same responsibilities as my regular force counterpart and I am getting Class C, yet another person who is serving next to me say in a OJT billet is getting 85% or in a shore billet like in the BOR doing the same job as the reg force clerk. Whatever happened to equal pay for equal work. As a Class C, I sign a contract that says I can be deployed anywhere the CF tells me to go.  My opinion is that if you wear the uniform, you should be prepared to go ANYWHERE the military tells you to go,that should be the same for Class B. People are always telling me join the reg force, I have my reasons not wanting to join. I think there should be some sort of restructuring, say having a active duty reserve vice a inactive duty reserve like the US military. With the manpower shortages we have now, the forces need the reserves and we shouldn't be utilized as a cheap source of labour. Remember all the years when we were paid 65%.

 

[X-mo-1979]

I guess when command made going to Scotian a mandatory event, they didn't count on the Minister being a pin cushion >. I guess i'll wade in on this one. I'm a reservist who have been full time for the last 14 years, over five of them been Class C. I have the same responsibilities as my regular force counterpart and I am getting Class C, yet another person who is serving next to me say in a OJT billet is getting 85% or in a shore billet like in the BOR doing the same job as the reg force clerk. Whatever happened to equal pay for equal work. As a Class C, I sign a contract that says I can be deployed anywhere the CF tells me to go.  My opinion is that if you wear the uniform, you should be prepared to go ANYWHERE the military tells you to go,that should be the same for Class B. People are always telling me join the reg force, I have my reasons not wanting to join. I think there should be some sort of restructuring, say having a active duty reserve vice a inactive duty reserve like the US military. With the manpower shortages we have now, the forces need the reserves and we shouldn't be utilized as a cheap source of labour. Remember all the years when we were paid 65%.

So if its such a big deal and your already doing the same job with the same pay/deployments....why dont you join the reg force?

 

[armyvern]

I guess when command made going to Scotian a mandatory event, they didn't count on the Minister being a pin cushion >. I guess i'll wade in on this one. I'm a reservist who have been full time for the last 14 years, over five of them been Class C. I have the same responsibilities as my regular force counterpart and I am getting Class C, yet another person who is serving next to me say in a OJT billet is getting 85% or in a shore billet like in the BOR doing the same job as the reg force clerk. Whatever happened to equal pay for equal work. As a Class C, I sign a contract that says I can be deployed anywhere the CF tells me to go.  My opinion is that if you wear the uniform, you should be prepared to go ANYWHERE the military tells you to go,that should be the same for Class B. People are always telling me join the reg force, I have my reasons not wanting to join. I think there should be some sort of restructuring, say having a active duty reserve vice a inactive duty reserve like the US military. With the manpower shortages we have now, the forces need the reserves and we shouldn't be utilized as a cheap source of labour. Remember all the years when we were paid 65%.

But there's the kicker of the difference between you (C Class) and a B Class. A B Class pers is only a short term contract, for example to fill in for one of my troops while she completes her maternity leave and he is therefore not deployable, further taskable to CFSAL/TAVs etc (even with LOTS of notice, unlike some of my RegF troops who find themselves with as little as 24 hours notice before being sent away to teach for 12-16 weeks etc away from their families). <--- You see ... WE RegF get "short term employment" in other places too --- but we do NOT have the option of saying no, even with as little as 24hour notice / the job requirements are VASTLY different ... it is not a case of unequal pay for equal work. Rather it's a case a RegF (or Class C) being paid more exactly because we have no choice, no say, and WILL do (or go to jail); not will do if we feel like it.

You, being C Class, are on a long term contract --- subject to the same rig-a-ma-roll that the RegF guy/gal next to you is ... and you get 100% of the pay to show for it.