Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[McG]

MCG and Infanteer

I think it is time you should attend a SCAN Seminar and find out about Pensions.

I'm sorry George, but it's just not that simple.  If the overwhelming majority of double-dippers were, much like your self, employed within the reserves then I would probably happily turn a blind eye.  Unfortunately, that is not the case.

As likely as not, double-dippers are filling jobs that should be done by regular force personnel.  When one considers the 85% PRes pay rate and the pension, those individuals are making a higher income (and even higher take-home without the pension deductions) than their regular force pears and with less obligation (ie. no postings or directed deployments).

Right now LFDTS has a pot of money called the Individual Training Cadre Backfill (ITCB).  The ITCB pays reservists to back fill regular force instructor establishment positions because there aren't currently enough regular force.  The funny bit is that a lot of ITCB reservists are double-dippers.  Bringing home more money each day & living the good life of no postings, no operations and getting to pick the job.  Of course, all those same double-dippers living the gravy train in reg force positions are pushing the burden back onto fewer regular force peers (because now the fewer have to shoulder the burden of more tours & more postings). Double-dippers could be shouldering the burden.  They choose not to & collect more for it now.

The same is true of rampant HQ bloat through reserve hiring.  Here again we see regular force being lured away to live the life of a double-dipping reservist in an NDHQ job that was not high enough priority for anyone to be posted to(and at the same time the CMs now have that many fewer people to post to the jobs that really matter).

From the "what's in it for me" perspective, sure the double dipping thing seems great.  And, as I said above, where double-dippers are actually in the reserve units they are providing a strong return to the institution.  However, the double-dippin' gravy train that is roaming about the rest of the CF is degrading the institution.

As I said before (and particularly given the excessive bloat of double-dipping outside the reserves), if guys want to collect a CF pension and continue to serve in the reserves full-time, then the pension should only serve to bring that 85% pay up to not more than 100% (until the member actually retires). 

 

[George Wallace]

What is your opinion of the high paid help hired by firms like Calian?  Those officers and Snr NCOs who O'Brien has hired to do business with DND.  All those Sgt Majors in Meaford teaching D&M when they aren't hunting or fishing.  All those former CO's drafting up and running Exercises.  That is an even bigger scam.

 

[armyvern]

Ahhh right good point. That makes the reserve guy's annual income total during the 10 years 13500 higher than the reg force guy's, rather than 20000.

So the reg force dude achieves total income parity after 8.5 years.

Pariety after 8.5 years --- then all heck breaks loose.

Your RegF guy is getting out at 50 years of age (say he joined when he was 20);
Your RegF (20yr) / ResF (10yr) double dipper also joined at age 20, so is now 50 ...

At age 58.5 they hit wage pariety ... the RegF guy pulls into the lead handsomely because he's making at least $16 000 more a year on his pension than the double dipper for the rest of his life. If they both die at age 88.5 --- that's --- $460 000 more pensioned out over the 30 years for the guy who didn't double-dip ... almost 1/2 a million.

I love stats and figures ... one can really play with them to make any point they wish to.

Personally, After 20 years service and 9 cost moves ... if I want to retire because I'm sick of it (the moving) ... why the heck shouldn't I be able to get another govnt job? Civvies can retire from their jobs and go onto other jobs earning a 2nd pension; why the heck shouldn't I be able to do same?

 

[McG]

What is your opinion of the high paid help hired by firms like Calian? 

Where the contractor becomes an almost permanent staff, this is at least an equally bad way to blow public funds into the wind while providing a financial incentive to poach from the very manpower pools we are trying to protect. Unlike double-dipping reservists, contractors are even more limited as they cannot supervise, manage, or assess service members or government employees, and they cannot make decisions on behalf of the crown.

... and there this contractor approach in many cases also introduces the very real risk of establishing an illegal employer-employee relationship.

... but this is getting onto another topic.

 

[Occam]

So he maxed out on IPCs.  Are you still thinking that he will not get a pay raise, along with the remainder of the CF, for his ten years?

If the RegF guy in his example gets a raise, his Cl B counterpart will get a corresponding raise to maintain the 85% rate - making the issue of pay raises moot in his example.

 

[gcclarke]

So he maxed out on IPCs.  Are you still thinking that he will not get a pay raise, along with the remainder of the CF, for his ten years?

Yes, he likely would. Like I mentioned, I personally can't forecast the timing and amount of those increases, as I'm sure you also cannot. And it makes my back of the envelope calculations a heck of a lot simpler when I don't try to account for an unknown number of pay increases at unknown intervals of an unknown amount. And since both members would get the same pay increase, it somewhat balances out.

Personally, After 20 years service and 9 cost moves ... if I want to retire because I'm sick of it (the moving) ... why the heck shouldn't I be able to get another govnt job? Civvies can retire from their jobs and go onto other jobs earning a 2nd pension; why the heck shouldn't I be able to do same?

I'm fairly certain that this would be my prime motivation as well. Stability is a major factor. Indeed, as was discussed earlier, it's major enough of a factor to be considered worth about 15% of your salary.

What is your opinion of the high paid help hired by firms like Calian?  Those officers and Snr NCOs who O'Brien has hired to do business with DND.  All those Sgt Majors in Meaford teaching D&M when they aren't hunting or fishing.  All those former CO's drafting up and running Exercises.  That is an even bigger scam.

Well, the contracts are given to the firm. Said firm needs to hire people to be able to fulfill their obligations. Obviously they're going to go looking towards people who have experience in the relevant field. Even assuming the firm does some active "poaching" of personnel, in no case can I really fault the individual in question. If they felt that they could have a better life working for a company instead of in the Forces, who am I to stop them? They've put in the time, they've bloody well earned the right to tap out without me saying boo.

And if the amount of services being contracted out is honestly a problem... well, stop contracting out those services. Either do it yourself or go without.

 

[Occam]

I'm fairly certain that this would be my prime motivation as well. Stability is a major factor. Indeed, as was discussed earlier, it's major enough of a factor to be considered worth about 15% of your salary.

It's actually a little more than 23%, if you factor in the 330 days paid service vice 365.

A maxed out, spec 1 MCpl in the RegF makes 65724/yr, while a Cl B counterpart would earn 50508/yr, taking into account the 35 day break.

 

[George Wallace]

A maxed out, spec 1 MCpl in the RegF makes 65724/yr, while a Cl B counterpart would earn 50508/yr, taking into account the 35 day break.

There is no Spec Pay in the Reserves.

 

[George Wallace]

Yes, he likely would. Like I mentioned, I personally can't forecast the timing and amount of those increases, as I'm sure you also cannot. And it makes my back of the envelope calculations a heck of a lot simpler when I don't try to account for an unknown number of pay increases at unknown intervals of an unknown amount. And since both members would get the same pay increase, it somewhat balances out.

No, it doesn't balance out.  A pay increase on an 85% wage, and no increase on the pension being received, does not equal the pay increases and added 2% per year served towards a pension on the highest wages earned in a person's best five or six years.

I'm fairly certain that this would be my prime motivation as well. Stability is a major factor. Indeed, as was discussed earlier, it's major enough of a factor to be considered worth about 15% of your salary.

Well, the contracts are given to the firm. Said firm needs to hire people to be able to fulfill their obligations. Obviously they're going to go looking towards people who have experience in the relevant field. Even assuming the firm does some active "poaching" of personnel, in no case can I really fault the individual in question. If they felt that they could have a better life working for a company instead of in the Forces, who am I to stop them? They've put in the time, they've bloody well earned the right to tap out without me saying boo.

And if the amount of services being contracted out is honestly a problem... well, stop contracting out those services. Either do it yourself or go without.

So what you are saying is a "Double Dipper" isn't the same thing.  They are Second Class citizens in your eyes, because they have remained dedicated to the CF and still want to contribute as they prepare their "Dream Retirement" and fix up their "Dream Home", etc.  They are no different than any other CF member who has planned their life's goals and want to settle down.  They just have some lingering dedication to the CF that they would like to fulfill.  Are you suggesting they work at Tim Hortons or Home Depot instead?

 

[Occam]

There is no Spec Pay in the Reserves.

There are plenty of trades with Spec Pay in the Reserves.  The Navy is the only element that doesn't have any spec 1 trades in the PRes, and even that's about to change.  LCIS Tech, ATIS Tech, all the 500 series aircraft techs...they're all Spec 1 in the PRes.  I'm pretty sure there are a few other Army ones as well.

 

[George Wallace]

As I said before (and particularly given the excessive bloat of double-dipping outside the reserves), if guys want to collect a CF pension and continue to serve in the reserves full-time, then the pension should only serve to bring that 85% pay up to not more than 100% (until the member actually retires). 

That is a huge penalty to place on that person, and would result in a great loss to the Reserves as all these former Reg Force pers leave enmasse.

 

[PuckChaser]

That is a huge penalty to place on that person, and would result in a great loss to the Reserves as all these former Reg Force pers leave enmasse.

I agree its a big financial penalty, but I'm willing to bet most Cl B Ex-Reg members are on Cl B outside of their reserve units, or may even be a PRL. Former Regs leaving Cl B enmasse would hurt the RegF units that hired them more than the PRes. There are only a handful of Ex-Reg members that I can remember in my PRes unit that stuck around for more than a few months of Cl A before finding a lucrative Cl B somewhere.

 

[gcclarke]

No, it doesn't balance out.  A pay increase on an 85% wage, and no increase on the pension being received, does not equal the pay increases and added 2% per year served towards a pension on the highest wages earned in a person's best five or six years.

Granted, but we can't be certain, when making the decision to CT or not, that any pay increases will be coming at all, or when they will come.

In any case, it skews things more towards the reg force guy, likely reducing that 8.5 parity figure. Of course, we probably should also take into account interest earned on investements, but then we start getting really speculative.

So what you are saying is a "Double Dipper" isn't the same thing.  They are Second Class citizens in your eyes, because they have remained dedicated to the CF and still want to contribute as they prepare their "Dream Retirement" and fix up their "Dream Home", etc.  They are no different than any other CF member who has planned their life's goals and want to settle down.  They just have some lingering dedication to the CF that they would like to fulfill.  Are you suggesting they work at Tim Hortons or Home Depot instead?

Ummm no I am saying that I do not have a problem whatsoever with someone drawing a pension and a salary, no matter who they are drawing said salary from. I have no problem whatsoever with the concept of double dipping, and frankly think that the ability to do so is one of the better benefits that comes with this job. If someone has put in enough time to be able to get a pension, they have damn well earned, many times over, the right to determine what to do with the rest of their lives, without criticism from anyone else.

 

[gcclarke]

I agree its a big financial penalty, but I'm willing to bet most Cl B Ex-Reg members are on Cl B outside of their reserve units, or may even be a PRL. Former Regs leaving Cl B enmasse would hurt the RegF units that hired them more than the PRes. There are only a handful of Ex-Reg members that I can remember in my PRes unit that stuck around for more than a few months of Cl A before finding a lucrative Cl B somewhere.

I don't really think "hurting the reg force" would also be a good consequence of this decision.

 

[mariomike]

a civvy job for 20 years and retires with a pension

What company does that?

 

[George Wallace]

I agree its a big financial penalty, but I'm willing to bet most Cl B Ex-Reg members are on Cl B outside of their reserve units, or may even be a PRL. Former Regs leaving Cl B enmasse would hurt the RegF units that hired them more than the PRes. There are only a handful of Ex-Reg members that I can remember in my PRes unit that stuck around for more than a few months of Cl A before finding a lucrative Cl B somewhere.

Actually with Op Tempo, more and more units are replacing Reg Force RSS with Class B pers.  Many Reserve Units are finding that they have no other choice but to hire Class B to keep their daily operations going.  I will not comment on how many Reservists are filling positions in the Recruiting System at CFRCs, nor how many Reservists are making decisions in NDHQ. 

In actual fact, back in the 1970's the plan was for the Reserves to eventually "Train themselves".  They are pretty much in that position now, without the Reg Force support staff.

 

[armyvern]

What company does that?

Well, DND federal public servant employees just for one, amongst others ... Canada Post, Tn Canada etc etc etc.

Collecting Federal pensions for their work there ... serving in the ResF too ...

 

[mariomike]

Well, DND federal public servant employees just for one, amongst others ... Canada Post, Tn Canada etc etc etc.
Collecting Federal pensions for their work there ... serving in the ResF too ...

Thank you, Vern. I did not know that. City employees can not retire until age 55. Even if you've been with "the company" for 37 years. I should have joined the Posties! Thanks!
ooops maybe not the posties. I just checked their plan. No Thanks! It says if you go before age 55 they will reduce your pension! Or defer it to age 60. ouch!
http://www.cpcpension.com/displayContent.aspx?contentID=23&language=english

 

[Occam]

Actually with Op Tempo, more and more units are replacing Reg Force RSS with Class B pers.  Many Reserve Units are finding that they have no other choice but to hire Class B to keep their daily operations going. 

You're not kidding.

Take a look at this page:  http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/navres/12/12-n_eng.asp?category=155 - and click on the link for "Job Bank – Permanent positions (snapshot of the table on Intranet, by rank)".

There's a lot of sea-going positions in there, but there are an awful lot of full-time positions at Naval Reserve units as well.  Mostly ATR recruiting spots, supply, and RMS clerks, but lots of Class B positions they can't fill.

 

[McG]

What company does that?

Only the government.  The government is also the only employer that will let you transfer between jobs and start collecting a full pension while they still fully employ you (on a movement between RCMP, CF or PS).

The CF is the only place where you can transfer from "indeterminant" to years long "term" and still collect a full pension.

PS Pension Plan:  http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/hr-rh/bp-rasp/index-eng.asp