Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[McG]

Some days it really does feel like nobody takes the time to read the whole thread.  We still have people showing up demanding 100 % pay for deployed reservists despite the fact that nobody is arguing against this & that reservists already receive this.  There has been a whole list of interconnected reinforcing arguments for the 15 % difference, and we still have people showing up to dismiss the whole thing by illustrating occasionally some reservists may sometimes be an exception to the norm while ignoring the reinforcing issues on the periphery (ie: pointing out that reservists can get short notice employment during the summer course/tasking season while failing to account for the difference in choice, frequency, duration, and probability in contrast to typical regular force service member).  If anyone really wants to argue that Class A & Class B reservists deserve 100 %, then they had better start by going back to my shopping list of differences & addressing the whole thing in a complete argument.

The system here in Ottawa seems to easing away from Class Bs and hiring "Contractors" starting at $300 per diem for the absolute lowest rated PS contractor position;

Contractors are not public servants; they are not government employees. 

Agreed, but odds are the positionposting in Yellowknife will in fact be filled by a reservist looking for greener (or whiter) patures.

The miracle of the CFTPO...

No.  CFTPO does not fill postings.  It is a tasking program and separate from what the career managers do.

Actually, a unit that shall remain nameless, hired two class A pers for 3 days a week to fill in a full time clerks position. Equal or more work, for less pay.

Two people doing the job of one is equal? 

First, why do we offer three year full time comtracts to reservists anyway?  If they want to work full time, why do the not go reg force?  Seems logical to me.  If you want the same pay and benefits, then go regs and get them. 

Kiwi,
While your question about the "right" of limited numbers of reservists to deploy ahead of regulars in low tempo times may be a worthy debate, it is not germane to the discussion of reserve pay rates & can only serve to make an already volatile topic more explosive.  However, I will address this question because it is the Class B(A) that is closest to having a legitimate case for more equalized pay (though it'd still not be 100%) & one might be inclined to dismiss this debate by dismissing the requirement for Class B(A).  However, there is a requirement for Class B(A).  Just as it would make no sense for infantry not to be represented within the ranks of an HQ overseeing a force of/containing infantry, it would not make sense for the full time HQ positions overseeing reservists to have no reservists (each understands some of the issues peculiar to its own).  Thus there is a place for full time reservists in reserve units, reserve Bde HQs, Area HQs, Land/maritime/air staffs, & various places in NDHQ.  While the proportion of res to reg should diminish as you get into the higher HQs, the reservist still belongs.  (though, one could argue that the 15 year DLR Class B reservist no longer really brings the reserve perspective so much as the uniformed bureaucrat perspective)

 

[geo]

Hah, yeah I know, but in theory they should be solid.

There are no teeth to the application of those regulations.
So long as they do not go NES (or at least not do so too often) the Class A soldier can drag this on for an awful long time.  Under the old way of calculating the Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity, there were tons of Reservists who barely hung on to pump up their severance pay... (that has been fixed though)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Well folks, IMO, this can can be easily summed up.

If enough Reserve personall think that they are getting burned than I see no reason why they do not form an unofficial association,[not union] take a vote, and if the results are in favour of some kind of action, such as withdrawing service,[not strike] then maybe the Govt. would talk more...........

.....oh, hasn't been done yet?  Obviously lots of people are happy with the way things are, or at least, happy enough to keep collecting a pay.
Once again, careful what you wish for.    [I'd go back to binding arbritation in my job in a heartbeat.]

[6 posts while I was typing, hope this still goes with the theme]

 

[garb811]

Wow!  Some random thoughts on various posts:

Folks are complaining that a PART TIME JOB has a pension plan and are upset that they have to actually pay THEIR money into said plan?!  What other part time job has that??  My Dad worked 48 years at the same company and when he retired, he got a gold watch.  Also, in case you didn't know it, Reg Force have to pay into the Pension plan too...and unless we are lucky enough to have a few spare bucks to throw into an RRSP every now and then, that is the only pension we are accumulating.  How many Reservists are going to end up with 2 pensions at the end of it all?  Quite a few I'm thinking.

Folks are upset Cpls are making more $$ than a MCpl.  Guess what, my Cpl with 4 years in the CF total is taking home more money than an non-spec Sgt at the top incentive.

Here's a reversal for you...when a Res MP goes on Cl C, if they do not qualify to be issued a badge, they make the exact same money as his Reg Force counterpart even though the Reserve MP cannot do the full spectrum of duties of the Reg Force MP.  Additionally, he does not face the same legal liabilities WRT the MP Code of Conduct as the Reg Force MP does plus the Reg Force MP is also liable for the conduct of the Reservist if a complaint is laid with the MP Complaints Commission about any Police Ops matter where the Res MP was in attendance with the Reg MP.  Where's the equity in that turn of events from the Reg Force member's standpoint?

...I guess I am reacting to a perceived "we are better..." attitude directed at PRes.

This is not a "We are better..." issue for Reg Force pers, this is simply a case of certain people in this thread refusing to acknowledge that we are payed differently because we face more legal obligations than Reservists when we sign on the dotted line.

Finally, unless the Reservist is a student, if they are banking on the Res Force employment to fund their life via Class Bs and Cs they really, really need to take a long hard look at themselves.  This is akin to planning for retirement via buying lottery tickets.

 

[Dissident]

I didn't get spec pay during my class C. Neither did the other reservists going over with me, or before me.

Edit: I got it the wrong way around. I forgot RegF QL3 MP don't get Spec pay anymore.

 

[Poppa]

they make the exact same money as his Reg Force counterpart

Well actually if reg Cpl doesn't have their 5's a res Cpl of the same IPC will make the same on Cl C.

I agree with the rest of your points vis a vis accountability btw.

Cheers

 

[garb811]

Thanks for adding the clarification of the rank which I missed.  :-[

 

[Harris]

IF a Reservist on Class B gets 100% of the pay, they should also be prepared to serve with the exact same TOS and deployment potential as their Reg Frce comrades.  You can't have the best of both worlds.

Being a Class B guy, I agree %100.

 

[garb811]

Being a Class B guy, I agree %100.

But, if you're making 100% of the $$ and have the exact same TOS, you are no longer a Reservist.  You can't have the cake and eat it too.

As has been stated previously, the best bet would be to fully implement the vision they had about seamless transitions between Reg Force and Reserve.  If a Reserve guy signs a 3 year contract, he's essentially enrolling into the Reg Force for that period of time and at the end of the 3 year contract he slides back into the Reserves.  Of course, that would mean you were liable to posting out of the area which seems to be the huge stumbling block for many Reservists.  One seemingly simple yet incredibly complex solution to that is to start guaranteeing Reg Force that they won't be posted for 3 year blocks as well...

 

[Harris]

If you are on contract due to deployment and are still working on top of that "contracted" duty with your Home Unit (even if they are in the same town) ... you are doing that at your own choosing. They are not your employer, nor are they your "owning Unit" while you serve on the "contract" and you are under no obligation to report to those Unit lines to work.

Maybe where you are, but it was made quite clear to me that before I would be allowed to accept my 3 yr Class B, I had to agree to continue to work with my home Unit (83 Km away one way no less).  Up until last weekend, I had worked every day for the previous 5 weeks in a row.  Either at my "day time" job, or at my Home Unit on evenings and weekends.  I am NOT working the Class A bit of my own choosing.

 

[Haggis]

 While the proportion of res to reg should diminish as you get into the higher HQs, the reservist still belongs.  (though, one could argue that the 15 year DLR Class B reservist no longer really brings the reserve perspective so much as the uniformed bureaucrat perspective)

Thankfully CMP Instr 20-04 allows for this in that Reservists serving in Class B, B(A) and C positions may, with the consent of the employing unit, continue to parade and train with either their parent units (if geographically able) or another nearby Reserve unit.  Interstingly, if a Reservist requests this, the employing unit must justify why it will not support the request.

This should be encouraged in order to prevent the long term Class B'ers from developing exactly the mindset you describe.  It also ensures that units are not handicapped by having key members on full time service and unable to contribute to the growth, prosperity and succession of the very units which nominated and supported them in their quests for full time employment.

 

[George Wallace]

:

I must say, Reservist today make a heck of a lot more than Reservists did in the 1970's.  That being said, I have an idea for a lot of Reservists and Regs;  you want to make more money.......join the Regs and work towards a Pension.......CT from the Regs to the PRes once you have a Pension and then double dip.  Then you'll make more part-time than you did full-time.  ;D

 

[armyvern]

Reading CMP Instruction 20-04, the intent of this instruction was to cease such examples that DL gave and to prove  Vern's point WRT units deliberately employing members in class A positions and performing class B duties, without the pay and benefits.

`

I think that`s why he`s got the Unit remaining nameless.

Regardless ... I`ve still got no names in response to my post which asked someone to show me an A Class pers who worked 4 days a week -- I figured I`d get an actual example of that from the guy who posted it as occuring. Guess not.

 

[Teeps74]

Wow!  Some random thoughts on various posts:

Folks are complaining that a PART TIME JOB has a pension plan and are upset that they have to actually pay THEIR money into said plan?!  What other part time job has that??  My Dad worked 48 years at the same company and when he retired, he got a gold watch.  Also, in case you didn't know it, Reg Force have to pay into the Pension plan too...and unless we are lucky enough to have a few spare bucks to throw into an RRSP every now and then, that is the only pension we are accumulating.  How many Reservists are going to end up with 2 pensions at the end of it all?  Quite a few I'm thinking.

Just thought I would point out, the pension (like a Reg F pension) means SFA without several years to back it up. So those that go on contract for a spell wind up getting a return of contributions, or a couple of dollars towards beer at the end of a career. For a PRes person to bank on the pension, they, like you are looking at min 20 years service. For those of us that can not afford the buy back of service, that means the clock started with contributions start date. Meaning nineteen years from now (I'll be 55 years young at that point).

A CL A reservist might have an opportunity to get two pensions...

After twenty years of service they can expect a monthly check of what?

$150? That's something I suppose. Money is better put in RRSPs at that point though (tax shelter now, with a much greater potential for growth on investments).

Folks are upset Cpls are making more $$ than a MCpl.  Guess what, my Cpl with 4 years in the CF total is taking home more money than an non-spec Sgt at the top incentive.

Here's a reversal for you...when a Res MP goes on Cl C, if they do not qualify to be issued a badge, they make the exact same money as his Reg Force counterpart even though the Reserve MP cannot do the full spectrum of duties of the Reg Force MP.  Additionally, he does not face the same legal liabilities WRT the MP Code of Conduct as the Reg Force MP does plus the Reg Force MP is also liable for the conduct of the Reservist if a complaint is laid with the MP Complaints Commission about any Police Ops matter where the Res MP was in attendance with the Reg MP.  Where's the equity in that turn of events from the Reg Force member's standpoint?
This is not a "We are better..." issue for Reg Force pers, this is simply a case of certain people in this thread refusing to acknowledge that we are payed differently because we face more legal obligations than Reservists when we sign on the dotted line.

Finally, unless the Reservist is a student, if they are banking on the Res Force employment to fund their life via Class Bs and Cs they really, really need to take a long hard look at themselves.  This is akin to planning for retirement via buying lottery tickets.

Then why bring on the pension? It is a taxable thing, which most of us will just likely take a return of contributions on, at which point in time we will get taxed again. The pension should be an option... There is no ability for us to opt out, with little in the way of short term benefit. Those that stick it out for 20 years on CL B service are in for a very nice little pension (though not as nice as a Reg F pension). Short term Bs, not so much, and CL A can expect to put the money down as payments for a nice new TV.

Now, not saying that we should or should not have a pension, just bringing up the realities of the Res pension plan (which is a nightmare to figure out by the way).

 

[aesop081]

The pension should be an option... There is no ability for us to opt out,

Now i know i need to stay away from this thread.

First it was "bitch bitch bitch whine whine whine" to have a pension plan........now its "it should be optional" ?

:

 

[Teeps74]

Now i know i need to stay away from this thread.

First it was "***** ***** ***** whine whine whine" to have a pension plan........now its "it should be optional" ?

:

When you quote me like that, the assumption is made I was whining for the pension. I was not.

 

[George Wallace]

Just thought I would point out, the pension (like a Reg F pension) means SFA without several years to back it up. So those that go on contract for a spell wind up getting a return of contributions, or a couple of dollars towards beer at the end of a career. For a PRes person to bank on the pension, they, like you are looking at min 20 years service. For those of us that can not afford the buy back of service, that means the clock started with contributions start date. Meaning nineteen years from now (I'll be 55 years young at that point).

A CL A reservist might have an opportunity to get two pensions...

After twenty years of service they can expect a monthly check of what?

$150? That's something I suppose. Money is better put in RRSPs at that point though (tax shelter now, with a much greater potential for growth on investments).


Then why bring on the pension? It is a taxable thing, which most of us will just likely take a return of contributions on, at which point in time we will get taxed again. The pension should be an option... There is no ability for us to opt out, with little in the way of short term benefit. Those that stick it out for 20 years on CL B service are in for a very nice little pension (though not as nice as a Reg F pension). Short term Bs, not so much, and CL A can expect to put the money down as payments for a nice new TV.

Now, not saying that we should or should not have a pension, just bringing up the realities of the Res pension plan (which is a nightmare to figure out by the way).

I was going to comment on your post, but there is so much wrong with it, I would suggest you do more research before you post crap like this again.

 

[Teeps74]

I give up. :brickwall:

 

[kratz]

`

I think that`s why he`s got the Unit remaining nameless.

Regardless ... I`ve still got no names in response to my post which asked someone to show me an A Class pers who worked 4 days a week -- I figured I`d get an actual example of that from the guy who posted it as occuring. Guess not.

My PER from Sept 2004 through to April 2005, I worked 136 class A days. This works out to an average of 4.85 days per week. It is rare to see a PRes work those number of days, but it is more than possible.

 

[armyvern]

My PER from Sept 2004 through to April 2005, I worked 136 class A days. This works out to an average of 4.85 days per week. It is rare to see a PRes work those number of days, but it is more than possible.

How many of those days were regular work days vice being on course, in the field, otherwise tasked due to attending required proceedings etc etc ... because the BClass pers would have done time on courses & in the field on TOP of those 5 days per week they worked. I too could spend 10 or 12 weeks on course one year (getting paid for those days as a Class A), and report one night per week ... my pay would then show me working 136 days (52 evenings once per week per year & 12 weeks X 7 days = 84 days on course).

Not quite the same thing.