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WHY? Soldier staying in bed during fight Split from Soldier sentenced for......

CSA, with this last post you have made me think some.  The 6 questions are valid ones.

I am sitting on the fence, though, as I still think the hand of discipline and military justice was slow and weak.  No mention was made of "underlying circumstances", so...I make my opinion based on the facts vice the what-ifs.

Why it happened is second in the line of importance to the fact that it did happen...and what tone does this set, i.e. the "precedent" I mentioned early in the thread??

Will this become "case law" for future non-hackers who can't, don't or refuse to stand their post?

That is a greater concern to me than why.

He is/was a MCpl.  If he was "unfit duty", wouldn't he or others have known it?  Would he NOT have been charged for "the unknown reasons" which he surely would have mentioned to his defence to get out of any and all charges due to some underlying physical/mental...illness/weakness/whatever? 

And why coerce others to not follow orders?  That is the point I can't fit into the puzzle...

Seems to me he just stepped on it, based on the facts as presented...we could what-if this to death.

I do agree with the questions and concerns that would stem from this though that you brought up.  I think they are solid from the leadership "is there a bigger problem on my hands here????" persective. 

My 2 bones.

 
CSA-105, great questions...made me scratch my head.

I think it was a case of complacency in the broadest of terms. His trying to convince others not to react, well, thats just poor judgment on his part.

IMHO there could very well be leadership issues IRT personality conflict between him and his superior. Why did he go for a CM when a Summary Trial would have been over and done with quickly? Possibly to expose some hidden truths? The JAG may have thrown out the charges entirely if that were the case.

I have been told by reliable sources that there is more to the story than meets the eye, but these are the first things that went through my mind after the initial shock of reading the article.

We could "what if" this to death...but it does raise some overlying concerns for anyone in a leadership position on this 'grate' site.

My 0.02 Duram worth.

Regards
 
I too want to know what caused this particular MCpl to act the way he did. Kiwi, CSA and MRM all have excellent points. Now I am intrigued. I want answers as much as anyone of you do. I don't want to one day give a command, and have my subordinates disobey it (I'm being serious here, please, please please no Subby jokes), because I was blindsided by a problem that I had not thought of or encountered before.

As with my last post in this thread, I said, we should all learn from this, but HOW can we learn from a mistake, if WE don't know how that mistake originated in the first place. Now, I know we may never get the real story, unless this individual comes onto this forum. Now, I have mixed feelings about him being here. However, I DO want to find out what had happened, and the thought process to which caused him to act the way he did (it's a repeat of a previous statement... I know...).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I want to approach this as a "how can we prevent this from happening again", as opposed to "how can we get at him". IF he does come here, we should refrain from slitting his virtual throat, if we are to learn anything.

Everything in this war is a learning experience. Our enemies are learning as we are. Despite our need to learn tactics and make our skills that much better, we should not neglect the fact that our soldiers are human beings. As human beings, we are susceptible to outside influences. What ever they maybe.

Just my two rupees.

 
RBD,

Here's the question then wrt the personality conflict.

Sgt Bloggins doesn't like MCpl Pickaname and the same back at the good 'ol Sgt.  There is a personality conflict.

Does MCpl Pickaname not have to follow orders (lawful commands) of Sgt Bloggins?

We both know the answer to this question...so my question is...where does "personality conflict" fit into the equation?

Does it?  Does it matter, on foreign soil, in an attack/perceived attack?
 
We can discuss the philosophical aspects of the event ad nauseum, but sometimes people do things for no reason. They make poor choices in full possession of all the knowledge required to make a good choice. I can't see how a "reason" enters into not responding to a general alarm in a theatre of war.
 
Well maybe I am wrong but...I think CSA is going for the Phase 2. 

That is...

Phase 1 - dish out discipline

Phase 2 - determine the "cause"

Phase 3 - prevent from happening in the future, knowing 2 and having done 1.

Or I could be driving blind with the lights off here...
 
I could say the same to you, but that wasn't why I split this topic off.  You, as MRM has pointed out, have taken this matter to another level.  You are looking for "reasons" he acted as he did (MRM's Phase 2) so that you can come up with a preventative measure (MRM's Phase 3).  What if there was no Phase 2?  What if he was just one rotten apple who managed to somehow bluff his way through the system?  Right now, the system demands of its instructors that they document everything, to justify and backup any pass/failure of candidates on Crse.  If a candidate can BS his/her way through and disguise their true selves, it is not the Instructors nor the Systems fault.  Having been on both sides of the Training System, I, and many of you, know that even with the most diligence, some candidates do make it through that shouldn't.  I don't blame the System for the abilities of these 'frauds' making it through the system.  They are 'Conmen' who would bluff anyone.  Was this person one?  I don't know, and probably neither do you.  Eventually these people are caught.  Perhaps this was such a case/perhaps not.

This guy exercised poor judgement in more than one instance.  He didn't performed his assigned duties, and he attempted to persuade another soldier subordinate to him to do the same.  Personality conflicts; a Dear John Letter; any number of other excuses have nothing to do with what he did, as others have pointed out.  Poor judgement, again as others have pointed out, can be made by anyone, at anytime.  We have all been guilty of that at one time or another.  This was the worse time to have done so.

If this were to become systemic, then all of your banter would be valid and I would agree totally with you, however, (playing 'Devil's Advocate' here,) I don't agree if this is one isolated case. 

Perhaps there is a possibility that you are chasing windmills, following our terrible 'Canadian Trait' of looking for problems where there may not be one. 

Are we overanalysing his actions?
 
Had there been a "why" to this incident, it should've been brought out at the CM by his lawyers rather than rely on a (IMO) tenuous comparison the somewhat similar case of Sgt Goodland.  This is called a "mitigating circumstance".  As the CM transcript shows no evidence of any "whys" being brought forward, I'd say there are none.
 
Haggis said:
Had there been a "why" to this incident, it should've been brought out at the CM by his lawyers rather than rely on a (IMO) tenuous comparison to antoher somewhat similar case.  This is called a "mitigating circumstance".  As the CM transcript shows no evidence of any "whys" being brought forward, I'd say there are none.
Click to expand...

Agreed.  There is always a "why" to go along with a crime, but the "why" isn't what's on trial.  It's the "what" that's on trial.

It's his actions, not the reasoning behind it.  No one else is responsible for his actions but him, otherwise the majority of murderers would be set free on the grounds that there were other mitigating circumstances validating their actions.  Weather that's the case or not, nothing validates this soldiers actions enough to absolve him of wrong doing... unless it comes out in the wash that someone ordered him to stay in bed, or forcibly tied him to his bunk, neither of which seem to be the case, or he wouldn't have gone before a CM.

I'm not saying there's no other reason behind his actions, but the "why" doesn't excuse him, it just gives others the tools to prevent the same actions.
 
"Some Huns seek solutions for which there are no problems"- Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"- Sigmund Freud

Undoubtedly there are sometimes deeper "Mummy never hugged me" and "Daddy threw me in the air and forgot to catch me" reasons for peoples actions.  It's equally just as likely that our man acquired a level 3 case of the fukkits, and chose a poor time to give vent to it.

my .12 TTD
 
I just finished reading all the posts and the shortcuts that were in this topic. It really kind of worries me. From everything that I have seen here there very likely is a serious problem with the individual. All his PER's before and after the incident rate him as a good soldier. So in my opinion his actions don't make sense. After five months he should know full well what his job is and what he has to do. I am really torn on this one because his actions don't jive with his past performance( what we know of it anyway). I agree with his sentence, I actually think he got off quite lightly considering what could have been given to him. I also really believe that his actions could very well have cost somebody their life, it was just pure dumb luck that it didn't. No matter what his circumstances are though, wether you agree with and order or not you have to follow it. If you believe there is a problem then you bring it up the chain of command. Myself, I would rather lose an hours sleep and stand to then just lie in my bed and cost one of my buddies their life. Dead is dead and you can't turn something like that around. Why take the chance.
My two bits.
Feet :cdn:
PS I am going to go read the other half of the topic now.
 
Just to clarify, it is not a 'theater of war'.  Especially since it hasn't been declared.  However, I have heard from someone al ot higher in the chain of command than 99% of the people here that is, and I quote "the harder side of peacekeeping".  Hard to believe, but true.  So if its the harder side of peacekeeping, does that change the circumstances? 

P.S. - I realise it is not the harder side of peackeeeping, but imagine hearing that from some goon two days after your platoon has had 4KIA and 10 WIA.  And many other know that this buffon is wrong also.
 
Kiwi99 said:
Just to clarify, it is not a 'theater of war'.  Especially since it hasn't been declared.  However, I have heard from someone al ot higher in the chain of command than 99% of the people here that is, and I quote "the harder side of peacekeeping".  Hard to believe, but true.  So if its the harder side of peacekeeping, does that change the circumstances? 

P.S. - I realise it is not the harder side of peackeeeping, but imagine hearing that from some goon two days after your platoon has had 4KIA and 10 WIA.  And many other know that this buffon is wrong also.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify: it's a war.  (A "war" need not be declared to be a war.)  Therefore the offence was committed in a "theatre of war" and, more importantly "in the presence of an armed enemy".  That is known as an "aggravating circumstance".  Had he pulled a similar stunt on an FTX, no one would've been endangered by his actions.  However, in this instance, people were sufficiently endangered to investigate his actions, make statements under oath, lay charges, bring those charges to trial and find him guilty.  Do you have any idea how many people are involved in this process? Do you have a clue as to how many people were so convinced of the seriousness of his act that they were willing to participate in the process of bringing the charges to this conclusion?

So, Kiwi99, I'd say that you're in the minority being the one looking for some mitigation of his actions.  There is none.  Never was.  If there was, it would've been brought out by now and he would not have been convicted.  Heck he may not have even been charged in the first place!.
 
I am not looking to rpve he is innocent or anything along those lines.  Cases like this are few and far between, and therefore, in my opinion, are things that need to be studied and talked about.  Talking about this type of incident does neither party harms, and may do others benefit.  I could care less about how many people were involved in what, thats not my concern.  To suggest that there may have been mitigating circumstances is simply that, a suggestion.  No harm is done in asking, is there?
 
This soldier was not at his assigned place of duty when required. Plain and simple.
Twenty one days is a gift!!!
It's mind boggling that kitchen sink psychology is being bandied about here trying to justify this mans actions (or lack thereof).
I think it's safe to say that regarless of how he performs in the future or what he accomplished in the past...he's done!
 
Jammer

That belongs in the other topic.  Here, some want to try and figure out why he may have done it; not discuss his sentence or 'crime'.
 
See, I could've almost understood reasoning behind it if it was a rocket attack at KAF (unless on QRF, of course).

After a few of them, most people didn't even bother. But Jeebus help you if a Sgt Major caught you just wandering around complacently, not bothering with BA or finding a bunker.

Out at a FOB though, when there's a stand to, I see that as a whole different ballgame.
 
Roger that George,
But why???
It makes about as much sense to try to justify Kyle Browns actions or inactions. I'll let it go however...
 
Jammer I don't think anyone is looking to justify the action, more so understand the reasoning behind said action. I know I wish I could talk to the guy an really find out hat went through his head to make the choice he made. Was is there something behind it that even he didn't realize at the time that influenced his decision making process etc etc...
 
I suppose we all would like to find out what he was thinking, or perhaps it was complacency...we all are guilty of it at some point during out tours...especially when the unusual becomes routine.
 
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