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Why Not Canadian Amphib/Marine Capability? (merged)

Sea dog does have a point 2 Bravo.

With the Danes chasing our shrimp, cod and oil up off Hans Island wouldn't it be nice if we could mount an expeditionary capability to Arctic Bay on Baffin Island form Halifax? Or maybe even St. John's?  A bit of sovereignty patrol, a bit of joint amphibious practice, a bit of expeditionary capability?  Heck it might all come in handy some day.

In the meantime, if the Arctic melts enough again to let the Inuit and the Vikings (Oops....I meant to say Danes - don't want to offend any Scandinavian sensibilities here) continue their wanderings, then we will be ready to lend a hand, or see them on their way as the case may be. >:D ;)
 
No argument about the idea of being able to project our sovereignty to the North. but we do not need a rapid response force in order to do that. its not like the Danes will be going to war with us over a chunk of small rock. However, we could take care of much of that by supplying our Navy again with proper ice breakers, as well as newer coastal patrol planes.

While I agree with 2Bravo about protecting our interests on foreign soil, Sea-dog still has a point about being able to react to insurgencies here on our own soil.

Now this may sound far fetched, but it is a possibility.

We all know, Canada is a haven for many "radical" organizations with interests abroad. Organizations that are using Canada as a safe house and a place to rest, and maybe even to train. As well, if anyone believes in the idea that things are going "according to plan" with the States and their war on terror in both Afghanistan and Iraq are rather naive. Those two places are balanced on a knifes edge, and things could go very wrong very fast.

Also and even worse is the idea that they may want to go into Iran now. This would de-stabilize an area already under far higher stresses then we can imagine. If things should melt down quickly, we can expect not only that whole region explodes, but also organizations that are already here become active and possibly doing greats amount of damage with which we could not respond to in a timely manner.

Yes, far fetched. But we need to stay aware of the fact that Canada is a nice place, but that we're not immune to the rest of the worlds woes. We've wrapped the blanket of false security around us for to long.
 
No argument here on the insurgency case Zipper, but I am afraid that that argues for light forces again.

As I look at Iraq, I see the evolution of an Army.

In a peaceful, ordered society where people accept their government then policemen can go unarmed.

If there are ruffians and the ruffians have knives then the policeman needs a gun

If the ruffians get a gun then the police need two guns.

If a pack of ruffians get guns then the police need machine guns and armoured vehicles - At this time they start to need paramilitary back up like the Police Commandos and the Iraqi National Guard

If the ruffians get heavy weapons then heavier weapons need to be supplied to the authorities - Now we are starting to move into light infantry and light cavalry roles

If the ruffians get armour the authorities need a functioning army with heavy armour.


I don't see the prospect of battalions of marauding anybody rampaging across Canada anytime soon, still least with Armoured vehicles and heavy weapons.  Platoon sized elements with light weapons and all sorts of nasty explosive devices and WMDs are more likely.  The counter is Coy/Bn sized forces with Light Armour (Maybe some Heavy APCs).

Roughly the same type of forces found in the UK Royal Marines. 

Practicing them on the coasts would add to sovereignty claims, thereby minimizing the chances of having to take lethal action against anybody.  At the same time they would develop skill sets that would be useful in other theatres.

Rather than trying to build up the force so that we have a little of this and a little of that and not much of anything at all - incapable of sustaining a presence when presence is needed, wouldn't it be better to determine the type of force we need to meet our domestic needs, equip and train it well to work in our environments to our purposes, then recruit more units of that type than we need.

Farm the surplus-to-requirement units out to the international community so as to make friends and influence people, generate stability so our merchants can make lots of money and pay for my health benefits, and in the meantime the troopies get lots of practical experience in distant lands and climes.  All good stuff it seems to me.

Once we have got those bases covered then we can start thinking about what else we can afford, after the day-care bills are paid, and start buying additional capabilities, starting from this premise: "What value does it give to Canada?"

And by the way, an example of such thinking might be, after the requisite numbers of light troops, helicopters, aircraft, Bv206s, LSVW replacements, EEZ patrol and SAR capabilities have been met, after all that, then look at the cost of a heavy armoured battle group to be able to support, rescue lightly armed and armoured Canadians in far-flung places.

But the way that I take Sea-dog, and I agree with him in principle if not in detail, is to do our appreciation based on domestic needs first, make sure those needs are dealt with then start considering how to get involved with the rest of the world.

The biggest threats to our security come through our seaports and airports in freight containers.  The biggest undefended zones are our the maritime approaches, the seaways, the railways and the highways.  The greatest risk is to our cities.

The answer, as in any other defensive scheme, is to channel the traffic (enemy or friendly) through the existing ports, cover the ports with security (fire) then monitor the obstacles (ice, rock, forests, barbed wire) and bind them into a fire plan (soldiers with rifles, boats with guns, aircraft with bombs and missiles, - yes even subs with torpedoes) in case someone tries to breach the obstacles.

We are going to know if somebody tries to sneak a Division into the country by air or sea.  We could probably do some significant damage to the shipping on our own just now - and no doubt we would find a friend to help us out.

The problem again is small units, covert units, and weapons without units at all, just a cell phone.

So disused fishing trawlers in remote locations, low flying civilian aircraft, bodies in cargo containers in ships docked at quayside.

The other potential risk is commercial ventures.

Like foreign scrap iron merchants at an abandoned whaling station or sealers on an island undetected coming back year after year for 2-5 years.  Making claims that seeing as how we aren't using the place, didn't know about it, didn't complain about it then they have more right to it than we do.

What happens if the decide not to move when the local mountie and his trusty DFO partner show up and they decline to move, demonstrate they are armed and request assistance from the Motherland to protect their commercial rights?

On all of these grounds I say that building a light force base CF, with a modest heavy reinforcement capability, is probably the right answer for us.

Or put it another way 3 light brigades and a cavalry brigade with a heavy armour battlegroup.  Lots of transport, air (fixed and rotary), sea and land.  A useful (what does that mean???) amount of Combat Air Support. Naval forces capable of operating in all our waters, all the time in all seasons and also being able to escort/transport our expeditionary forces.

And a credible Militia force capable of securing Vital Points, including cities, and conducting route patrols of pipelines, highways, canals and powerlines.

Cheers.

 
Kirkhill said:
No argument here on the insurgency case Zipper, but I am afraid that that argues for light forces again.

On all of these grounds I say that building a light force base CF, with a modest heavy reinforcement capability, is probably the right answer for us.

Or put it another way 3 light brigades and a cavalry brigade with a heavy armour battlegroup. Lots of transport, air (fixed and rotary), sea and land. A useful (what does that mean???) amount of Combat Air Support. Naval forces capable of operating in all our waters, all the time in all seasons and also being able to escort/transport our expeditionary forces.

And a credible Militia force capable of securing Vital Points, including cities, and conducting route patrols of pipelines, highways, canals and powerlines.

Cheers.

You know something? I think I may just agree with you on most of it for once!! MY GOD!!!

I think we still are apart on just what kind of vehicles our gov is putting us in.

I'll still take exception to that Cavalry thingy, but otherwise I agree with you. The fact that you put in there a moderately heavy armour battlegroup surprises me. Of course, I would like to know what your interpretation of heavy is? Mine would even accept something along the lines of (Majoor's love) the CV-90.

Cheers back. ;)
 
Zipper you may be in need of counselling shortly.

IIRC you recently agreed with GW and now you are agreeing with me.... I fear for your sanity ;D

Now to make matters worse I will inform you that a CV90, or even heavier, platform is exactly what I had in mind as I wrote that.  The German Puma is interesting because you can ship it at about the 25 to 30 tonne mark then add another 5 to 10 tonnes of armour in theatre.

But seeing as how you have gone and agreed with me I shall now go have to have a rethink ;)

Kidding aside, you think it could work?
 
I think hell has frozen over...or at least felt a chill.

Work?

Hell, anything could work if we actually had the money and the political will. All our disagreements and such don't mean a rats *** if those two things don't get met.

Sigh.

I would rather like to see the Armour side of things sooner then your plan. If we don't get some kind of decent Armour, then I am afraid it could mean the death knell for the Corp. Which I think would be tragic.

Our system of doing things is actually not that bad, considering that the British seem to be moving towards it in a way. We just need the money for personal and equipment to make it work properly. How much that is going to be? I don't know. I cannot believe that the Government is just going to throw out that 5000 extra personal bone, and then leave us high and dry in the next budget again. It would be political suicide. How much their going to give? Who knows until the day (or the day of leaking).

I just know that the way we're going now with the MGS's and this DFS concept is wrong. As wrong as the LSVW.

But what do we do? We soldier on and say "yes sir", and find a way to cope.

Sigh.

Although on a high note. We do have better equipped Infantry then we've had in a long while.

 
Zipper said:
We just need the money for personal and equipment to make it work properly.

Where have I heard that before???  Oh yes, thatCenturion from the Legion down the road said it.  LOL Seriously, all you can do is to press for what you need.  Then go out and perform with what you've got.
 
Bravo Zulu ! To all , but especially to Kirkhill !

I could not have said it better,the more I read your comments the more it becomes clear that Canada has a real and present danger.

It is very important to keep in mind that consolidation or reconstruction does NOT necessary mean more money but more effective expenditure.If you take the time,do your pre-planning based on previous combat experience and some real-time security evaluation to support R & D, you might just find that you have more money available to target those aspects where your security is lacking.

The British has already started the process of  consolidating and inter-phasing some of their units.I am sure as in the case of the Brits,also in Canada some members will display the RC factor( resistance to change ),afraid of losing their old identities,and traditions.
The road ahead will not be easy,however the benefits will eventually out way these losses.

Of importance to note is that the Brits,to some extent has seen the light !
They are strengthening their amphibious forces with the possible addition of smaller ,faster Jump-jet type air-craft carriers that will add tremendous fire-power to the Royal Marines.
Other units like the SBS,SAS and the Naval Diving Units ,proved their capabilities and will not only be maintained ,but modernized and tailored to meet the new demands of the post 9/11 era.

It is now up to you ,not just to sit here and dream or complain, BUT to go out and to spread the word.
Start by influencing those around you,changing those old out-dated perceptions, and creating awareness.

I lived all my life under threat of war,I have seen the bodies of small kids mangeled in pools of blood on the streets,while others celebrated these acts by handing out cakes in the streets of their towns and cities.
I have been out there night and day to safeguard my family and friends.It is my sincere hope that you all will take this opportunity to do the same.
Bury your differences and ,start now to put out the message ,before it is to late !  :skull:
 
I do believe that Canada needs the capability to operate on the littorals (ours or somebody else's), but I do not think that we should abandon our foreign deployments.

Threats to a nation can be seen in terms of capability and intention.  The given threat by a state or group to another state can be "assessed" as being capability to harm times the hostile intentions.  Thus a state might have a capability to harm Canada but not have hostile intentions and thus is not a threat.  Another state might will have the intentions but not the capability.  Most will fall somewhere in between.  This also ties in with probablilities and our selection of forces must strike a balance between dealing with the most dangerous and the most likely.

Looking at Canada, few nations have declared hostile intentions.  Many first world countries have the capability to attack Canada but do not have hostile intentions.  There is the arctic sovereignty issue and the CF does have an important role in establishing surveillance and demonostrating presence.  Demonstrating that we can get to our remote artic areas with military forces is important and a "marine" capability would perhaps deter other nations from casting covetous glances on our north.

Various terrorist organizations have both the intention and capability to attack Canada (and our allies).  Right now this threat should be the main focus of Canada's security forces, and I would argue that the CF is already disposed to deal with this threat.  I would argue, however, that if our conventional forces are fighing terrorism in Canada then things have already degenerated.  Our army should be prepared to go foreign countries to either deny their use to terrorists as safe havens or to prevent local conflicts from creating the conditions that breed terrorism.

My own prespciption?  Six Cavalry Task Forces and six Light Task Forces.  The Light Task Forces (or perhaps a couple of them) would have the ability to conduct littoral operations.  The Navy would maintain its CPFs but increase its ability to deploy and sustain at least company sized groups.  The air force would maintain long range surveillance and fighters but would add more heavy lift.  Most importantly, we would drop the Griffons and get Chinooks.

Cheers,

2B

 
2 Bravo

I don't see major disagreement. 

I also don't believe that Canada should give up on foreign involvement.  I just think that the nature of the forces that we are offering should first of all reflect our domestic needs.

To that point I will even stipulate your 6 and 6 formula for task forces.

However I might be inclined to group them this way

3 Light Brigades of 2 Light TF/BGs and a Cavalry TF then a Cavalry Brigade of 3 Cavalry TFs  (perhaps even 2 light armoured wheeled and 1 medium/hvy armoured tracked - depending on what transport, logistics and budgets decree)

After that it is a case of choosing our fights and ensuring, to the extent possible, that we don't get over-matched.

However as Big Bad John suggested that is a problem at least as old as Caesar's Centurions.  The Romans had their armies trained, equipped and organized and were at the peak of their performance when they were over-matched by a bunch of Germanic savages in the Teutoburgerwald.  Stuff happens,  and it happens to soldiers more often than most......

Cheers.
 
Kirkhill/Sea-Dog (and eveyone else),

This particular thread has really got me thinking over the last few days.  It is easy to get caught in the weeds, so to speak, and it is very useful to take a step back and look at broader roles and purposes as is being done here.

We are in the middle of "transformation" so we had best try to get it right.  How do we avoid the fate of the Romans in the forest, the 7th Cav at the Little Bighorn and various little expeditions that have come to grief in far-away places?  Perhaps the key is to have an honest appreciation of our own abilities.

More to follow and cheers to all,

2B
 
2Bravo the question is what will provide area air defence for your company size groups? Without 280s or any other platform to provide area air defence your transports and escorts reapidly become sitting ducks, if you convert some CPFs to the AAD role you lose escort platforms. Hence my constant harping on concentrating on all 3 warfare disciplines for the navy.
 
Kirkhill on an earlier post.

Naval forces capable of operating in all our waters, all the time in all seasons and also being able to escort/transport our expeditionary forces.

Ex-Dragoon, I will stipulate that for safe passage, the escort group needs an AAD capability. If the same vessel can also shoot down other targets and be available for other assignments so much the better.

Cheers.
 
Ex-Dragoon,

Without getting too far into the Navy aspect, the answer on AAD might depend on how the littoral capability is being used (threat dependent).  For an independent Falklands-style operation it would obviously be critical.  Perhaps less so for an Arctic sovereingty demonstration or a coalition expedition.  I'd like to manage expectations here and state that independent littoral warfighting ventures in non-permissive environments would be a little difficult without our own aircraft carriers.  The history of surface ships operating without air cover is not a particularily happy one.  In our case I think that that particular ship has sailed...

All that being said I was painting with a very broad brush and when I wrote "CPFs" I was thinking that the Navy keeps its "blue-water" capability as opposed to saying "keep the CPFs and scrap the Tribals."  I like the Tribals if only for having the capability to hold two helicopters (do they still have that?).  My bad for being imprecise and believe me when I say that I am a supporter of the Navy (I was a Navy brat).  How would you economize to gain the ability to move troops within the same funding envelope (is it possible)?

Cheers,

2B
 
I hesitate to wade in here, but Marines are a form of force projection capability. Given the time and distance factors in getting around Canada (for those DOMOPS scenarios), much less getting to hot spots around the world, I would be more inclined to go the airborn route and reconstitute the Canadian Airborn Battalion as a minimum.

Modern military equipment has given airborn/light troops a punch they didn't have even a decade ago, and the medium/heavy forces can provide the backup after the jumpers have gone in and secured an airhead/railhead/beachhead.
 
Personally, but I am bias here, I think that Canada would do well in emulating 3 Commando Brigade.  But not a force of Marines.  my 2 cents.
 
2Bravo said:
Ex-Dragoon,

Without getting too far into the Navy aspect, the answer on AAD might depend on how the littoral capability is being used (threat dependent).   For an independent Falklands-style operation it would obviously be critical.   Perhaps less so for an Arctic sovereingty demonstration or a coalition expedition.   I'd like to manage expectations here and state that independent littoral warfighting ventures in non-permissive environments would be a little difficult without our own aircraft carriers.   The history of surface ships operating without air cover is not a particularily happy one.   In our case I think that that particular ship has sailed...

All that being said I was painting with a very broad brush and when I wrote "CPFs" I was thinking that the Navy keeps its "blue-water" capability as opposed to saying "keep the CPFs and scrap the Tribals."   I like the Tribals if only for having the capability to hold two helicopters (do they still have that?).   My bad for being imprecise and believe me when I say that I am a supporter of the Navy (I was a Navy brat).   How would you economize to gain the ability to move troops within the same funding envelope (is it possible)?

Cheers,

2B

Without having our own carriers to provide TG Air Defence, having some sort of AAD becomes all the more critical especially since the Navy seems to be involved with more and more escort ops. If we ever wish to command anything like TF 151 like we did in the Gulf to hang on to an AAD capability is even more critical. Many here feel when operating in a Coalition type of setting we really don't need that capability and have our allies assume that role but I put forth this question, is that argument not unlike half the Canadian publics view we should let the US defend us? We have this capability now, we don't have carriers and we probably will never have them again so we should retain it. The air threat is not going away. If anything its getting bigger and faster and even more destructive. 16 sea sparrows and eventually evolved sea sparrows are not going to be able to defend an HVU (high value unit i.e JSS with troops on board). I am not saying with a ship with AAD capability is going to 100% guarantee your safety either but your odds for survival will improve greatly. Without the 280s your surface combatant force goes down to just 12 ships. Thats not many, if anything thats far too few. The loss of 1 or 2 for the Navy would prove to be catastrophic.

2Bravo to answer your question, there is still hangar space to carry 2 SeaKing but for the most part only 1 is, mostly due to the shortage of working helos. I think it was the mid 90s just after I remustered remember of hearing of a 280 with 2 CH124s embarked. One of the air types could confirm that more so.
 
I'm starting to get well out of my depth here but I am enjoying the thought exercise so bear with me.  Getting rid of the 280s would have problems (I went to the Navy thread) and once again I am not proposing that.  I've been looking at the JSS (both on this site and others) and trying to relate it to this thread.  The aim appears to be to put a battlegroup on board, but all the listed capabilties seem to talk about "lane meters" etc.  If this means that it simply carries the gear and the troops fly in and merry up in a port then perhaps the JSS is not a good "marine platform."  Perhaps we just continue to rent shipping if the aim is just to move kit around.  Looking at power projection, the problem with airborne forces is that once they land they have huge CSS problems.

I'm not committed to having Canadian Marines, but I am interested in having the capability of delivering troops to the littorals.  I see several  scenarios:

a.  arctic sovereignty demonstrations

b.  operations in the Western hemisphere (potentially involving all aspects of the three block war)

c.  operations in Africa/Pacific (less likely)

What would be required in a ship to have the following capabilities:

a.  transport one company of light forces;

b.  transport of combat support elements (Tp of Mortars, Tp of Sappers, Tp of Light Armoured Recce, AD Tp)

c.  on board UMS and Surgical Team

d.  stores for one month of deployed operations once landed (and a land CSS element to manage the on-shore bit)

e.  transport of HQ element for land forces

f.  C2 capabilities to include "reachback" to Canada

g.  four medium lift helicopters

What is the cost in "tonnage" per company of light infantry?  Getting a whole battalion group on board for more than a short hop might mean a ship that is beyond our means but I could be wrong!

The concept of ops for this force would be that it would use the helicopters (perhaps a transport version of the new shipborne helicopter) to get troops ashore (we'd need light armoured vehs that could be slung loaded) and to then handle the CSS bit.  For domestic sovereignty operations a deployment of two months could include stops at a host of islands/ shorelines to demonstrate our presence.  For operations on foreign soil this group could be the initial entry to stabilize an area (perhaps in conjuction with airborne forces).  Once again, I must be realistic here and without carriers our ability to project maritime power abroad is limited.

Would this capability have to be at the cost of a present one?  :-\

2B 

 
2 Bravo

I think you just listed the design criteria for the JSS as specified by NDHQ.  You also listed the design criteria for the New Zealanders Mult-Role Vessel (except they are only intending to operate a light helicopter).  Our JSS (New Zealands MRV + an AOR all rolled into one) will cost us about 700,000,000 CAD each, the Kiwi's MRV will cost them about 86,000,000 CAD, or about 12% of the price of a JSS.

To my eye "there be summat wrong 'ere".

As to the issue of air or sea.  I like Field Marshall Slim on this, and Col Stogran, especially in the Canadian context where every person is a long service volunteer and Canada has both sea and water needs.
I would ensure that parachuting was part of every light troopers training.  Paras can assault from landing-craft just as easily as they can from aircraft as the Brits did on the Falklands.  And as Big Bad John can no doubt attest, even "Booties" can be shown the door of an aircraft and fall out.  There are specialist skills associated with mounting both types of assaults but those skills are kept in specialized sub-units like pathfinder platoons, mountain and arctic cadres and assault raiders and boats companies.

Cheers.
 
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