• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Who lost the Vietnam war and why?

One of the issues that turned US public opinion against the war was indeed the corrupt and authoritarian nature of the South Vietnamese government. This was especially difficult for the American people to grasp given the idealistic nature of Americans in general and the specific strides made by the Civil Rights movement in the late 1960's. It was difficult to resolve "I have a dream" with spending blood and treasure for a regime which repressed Buddhist monks (but was of course unaware of what lay beyond the DMZ).

As I mentioned earlier, so long as the imperatives of the "Grand Strategy" of containment were fulfilled, then the occasional loss could be tolerated so long as there was no irreparable "breach" of the line.
 
In 1963 the US was barely involved in the ground war so this constant harping
on Diem`s corrupt gov.is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion.The political
situation did improve in the South,efforts were made to ease the situation of
the peasants, but this was an Asian country and not Ontario.I find it very
revealing that the lefties who say we should not try to force our Western
democracy on Iraq were calling for the US to do just that in Vietnam.Be that
as it may, the Tet offensive revealed that the South were basically happy with
their situation and were not ready to rise up and welcome their communist
liberators as Gen.Giap had predicted and the result was a massive defeat for
the North.
        The fact that Tet was a huge victory for the US and its allies was lost
in the self defeating media coverage of the battle.Take for instance the occupation of the US embassy in Saigon,it never happened,a small group of
VC sappers entered the garden of the embassy, and because their leader was
killed by the Marine guards on entry,milled around inside the compound until
dispatched by MPs.But that is the stuff of legends and this legend perpetuated
by the US media said the war was lost.Infact the insurgency war had been won
and in 1969 officers noted that in 1967 leaving a fire base one invariably got
into a fight were now(69) one had to go looking for one.
        Gen.Giap realised his guerrilla war was lost and in 1972 in desperation attacked the South with a conventional force of 14 Divisions.The ARVIN after
a period of confusion concentrated from its counterinsurgency positions all
over the country and with the help of US air power dealt the North another
major defeat driving the NVA back over the DMZ.They did not return until
1975 by which time the US forces had left and President Nixon was unable to
give them any support because the Democratic congress had cut off all
support for South East Asia.This by the way included Cambodia the result
was the genocide of over 1 million Cambodians.You will not hear anything
about this from the Left.
                Her endeath the lesson.
                                        Regards
PS Johnsons concern with Chinese intervention was missplaced as the
Chinese were Cultually Revolting at the time.
 
I am guessing that your answer to your own question is that the media lost the Vietnam War?

This argument is familiar to the "stab in the back" thesis that the German Army adopted after the First World War. It is compelling, but I am not sure if it tells the whole story. They are different situations, but in both cases we have a poweful army that had battlefield "victories" but a defeat in the war that needed to be explained.

I think that the North Vietnamese had much more will to win that war. We can blame the media for the loss of will in the US and thus their defeat, but perhaps that will was never really there?
 
mediocre1,

You posts are amounting to nothing more than spam on these forums.  If your posting style doesn't gain a noticeable measure of useful contribution very soon, you will find yourself subjected to the warning system as described in the Conduct Guidelines you agreed to adhere to on joining these forums.

Milnet.ca Staff

 
I beg to differ ,the WW1 German Army was convincingly defeated in the field
the US Army never was.Even Col.Moore`s 1/7 Cav.battle at LZ X-Ray oft
described as a defeat,230 US soldiers died and they found 450 NVA dead
on the field of battle,given that the NVA did  their best to remove their dead it is probable that the NVA losses were much higher. The NVA could not afford too
many victories of this nature.
  Another point , the will of the people counts for very little in brutal communist dictatorship,Ho Chi Min was not a cute little oriental gentleman merely
concerned with uniting his people as he was so often portraid in the Western media ,he was dictator in every sense of the word,controlling the thoughts
and the actions of his people and whose major concern was the extension of
his own personal power.The brutal nature of his regime was well illustrated
by its actions in the invasion of Laos and Cambodia,the genocidal murders
commited by his forces in these countries is well documented,if one cares to look.We have sent people to the international courts in the Den Hag for less.
That is the problem in a democracy, the will of the people is important to
the successful conduct of a war and we have no mechanism to ensure that
our media acts in a responsible way and report the wars,or anything else
for that matter,in an accurate,honest way.
  Did the media loose the war?,my answer is no,but their left pandering
and inaccurate reporting was a contributing factor.The real villians remain
the timid,one could almost say cowardly, Democratic government of Lyndon
Bains Johnson and the Democratic dominated Congress under President
Nixon who stabbed their erstwhile allies in the back.
I have enough vitriol left to add Jane Fonda to my responsible list,may
her soul rot in hell.
                    Regards       
 
time expired said:
I beg to differ ,the WW1 German Army was convincingly defeated in the field
the US Army never was.Even Col.Moore`s 1/7 Cav.battle at LZ X-Ray oft
described as a defeat,230 US soldiers died and they found 450 NVA dead
on the field of battle,given that the NVA did  their best to remove their dead it is probable that the NVA losses were much higher. The NVA could not afford too
many victories of this nature.
                      Regards     

I would argue that the North Vietnamese could afford those victories, while it appears that the US could not. Loss ratios have little meaning on their own, except of course to those involved. If a general has to sacrifice 100 of his soldiers to kill one enemy soldier what matters is whether he is willing to do so and whether his oppoent is able to bear the loss of that one.

I believe that war is utlimately a test of wills, and that in this case the North Vietnamese had a deeper reservoir of will to draw upon. Now, if North Vietnam had tried to invade, say, South Dakota instead of South Vietnam then the US would have probably had the advantage in the national will area.

At the risk of further derailing this thread (is that possible?), I introduced the German stab-in-the-back theory merely to give an example of a defeated army looking for some domestic reason for their defeat. A German officer in late 1918 could look to some major recent victories. I am not agreeing with their theory, but I have read that many of the time did ascribe to it.
 
~sigh~
OK, for those who actually read and think about what is posted here.....I apologize for taking up bandwidth with the obvious.

Otherwise...note that I haven't yet provided any personal view on this topic. I've merely posted academic source material in response to 'rant masquerading as fact.' Please....feel free to read, contemplate, broaden horizons, and/or inform your opinions -- pro or con. I beg you, provide rational counter-argument.

And if you need a term to bandy about.....it's not comm-you-nist......it's litt-er-ate.

It's nothing to be afraid of  ;)
 
Folks,
most of mediocre1's posts are now binned along with the responses. Maybe we can now carry on with a worthy discussion.
Thanks.
 
Journeyman said:
~sigh~
OK, for those who actually read and think about what is posted here.....I apologize for taking up bandwidth with the obvious.

Otherwise...note that I haven't yet provided any personal view on this topic. I've merely posted academic source material in response to 'rant masquerading as fact.' Please....feel free to read, contemplate, broaden horizons, and/or inform your opinions -- pro or con. I beg you, provide rational counter-argument.

And if you need a term to bandy about.....it's not comm-you-nist......it's litt-er-ate.

It's nothing to be afraid of  ;)

Shootin' down opinionators is almost too easy isn't it JM !
Blowing smoke off his six shooters!! ;D
 
Just as a side note, while we know today that the Chinese "Cultural Revolution" has effectively dislocated tha ability of the Chinese government or PLA to take effective action, this was not so clear in the 1960's. As well, the American law makers and generals of the Viet Nam war era were conditioned by both "Big War" theory and practice (WWII) and fear of the Chinese "hordes" from Korea. It is hard to be a rational actor when dreams of leading battalions and brigades are dancing in the heads of some while dark fears of losing yet another Asian nation (Americans were incensed when China was "lost" in 1947 and also by the aftermath of the Korean War) drive parts of the political process. Gradual disengagement and "Vietnamization" of the war effort was an acceptable compromise on the political end.

Remember all politics is local, so finding a compelling reason to spend blood and treasure on foreign wars is vitally important in the Liberal Democratic West. This lesson seemingly isn't absorbed by the political class, hence the difficulties in sustaining long term operations such as Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan; one can imagine that the public approval span of a mission to Darfur will be measured in months....

 
I am NOT a student of the Vietnam war, but I have read some books that gave me somewhat conflicting views of what went wrong from the US perspective. One view is Harry Summers' from On Strategy that that US was fairly successful in fighting the counter-insurgency aspect but failed to counter North Vietnam's conventional threat (it has been fifteen years since I read that book, so caveat emptor on my synopsis).  Another can be found in the more recent Learning How to Eat Soup with a Knife by John Nagl. It has been a couple of years since I read that one, but I recall that he outlines the US Army's initial strategy in Vietnam was to prepare the South Vietnamese to repell a conventional North Vietnamese threat instead of being organized to counter an insurgency. I am not sure where I fall on this one, but it is hard to deny that the North Vietnamese conquered South Vietnam with conventional forces - which to me is the elephant in the room when reading the Nagl book. My somewhat limited readings of the French conflict in Indo-China also shows Viet Minh regiments manoeuvring against French forces.

Maybe we should look at it from the North Vietnamese perspective. They had one long-term goal: unite Vietnam under their rule. This was an active, aggressive and offensive goal. To achieve this they employed a variety of means, ranging from insurgents in South Vietnam to regular units engaged in fairly conventional force on force conflict. They had the advantage of exterior lines in that they could manouevre forces in relative safety from the outside and thus pick and choose the time and place of their battles. Interior lines are often touted as an advantage, but I would rather be able to encircle from the outside than be encircled on the inside. Their bases were fairly secure (bombing and incursions aside) and they could retreat to lick their wounds and re-organize. They could wear down the US in a series of battles. They also had a direct stake in the outcome, whereas the US was more remote. What of the South Vietnamese in all this?

Perhaps one way to look at the VC was as partisans who operated in support of the regular NVA as opposed to classic insurgents. What works against Huks in the Philippines or ethnic Chinese guerrillas in Malaya may not translate directly into another theatre.
 
A couple of comments to the points raised above,the will of the people
in a communist dictatorship is largely irrelevant, the will of the Great
Leader is what counts,and Ho Chi Minh seem to have that in spades.
He wanted to unite Vietnam under his control and did not seem to care
how many Vietnamese,Laotians,Cambodians or Americans had to die to
fulfill that aim.A more accurate indication of the will of the people was
the refusal of the South Vietnamese to follow Gen.Giap`s call to rise up
against their government in support of the Tet Offensive,even better was
the huge numbers of  deserters from the NVA and what remained of the
Viet Cong after Tet.
    The NVA could only sustain the level of loss due their ability to run to
the safety of their Cambodian sanctuaries refit and rearm with new cannon
fodder coming down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.This was the major mistake of
the US gov. in my mind,allowing these sanctuaries to exist and not blocking
the trail with ground troops,air power alone was incapable of doing the job.
    The US Army initially sought to create an South Vietnam army in its own
image, it performed,on the whole,poorly it did not get the massive arty.or
air support given the US Army felt itself 2nd. class on top of this it was
poorly led.After Tet the ARVIN basically went into training camp for a
couple of years,Gen.Abrams groomed them to take over the counter-
insurgency role while the  ever smaller US Forces kept the NVA from
crossing the DMZ in any strength.This led to the ARVIN being poorly placed
to tackle the conventional attack by the NVA in 1972 however once they
had concentrated and with massive US air support they drove the NVA
back across the DMZ.
  As I opened this thread I mentioned the similarity between WW1 and this
more recent war insofar as it is very difficult to get at the facts of the
war through the curtain of myth and missinformation spread by the mass
media.This has shown up in some of the postings on this thread just as it did
on the Haig thread.I guess preconceived ideas can not changed by mere
facts.To all those to this comment does NOT apply,please disregard.
                              Regards
 
You might not like how that will was created and sustained, or that it may well have been concentrated in a small group of leaders, but that doesn't change that the North Vietnamese had the will to endure and the US apparently did not. The South Vietnamese not rising up during Tet doesn't necessarily mean that they had the will to fight.

So, should the ARVN have been organized and trained to fight a conventional battle against the NVA or a COIN fight against the VC? The Easter offensive you mention suggests that perhaps the ARVN should have indeed been a conventional force all along. Should the US have invaded the North as some have suggested?
 
http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/99/vietnamwar.html

The Vietnam War:
Winnable After All
Editorial
December 1999

by: Mackubin T. Owens

P>Several years ago the editor of a conservative public policy journal asked me to write an essay discussing whether or not the US could have won the war in Vietnam. I was happy to oblige. Based on my own experience and subsequent study of the conflict, I believed that not only could the US have won, it had won militarily by 1972.

US-ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) military successes against the North Vietnamese in 1968-1971 largely had stabilized political and economic conditions in the Republic of Vietnam (RVN). These military successes improved political and economic conditions, helping to solidify the attachment of the rural population to the South Vietnamese government. Although much remained to be accomplished, the overall performance of ARVN forces during the Easter Offensive of 1972 indicated that “Vietnamization” was working. I argued that had the United States continued to provide air and naval support, the RVN would have survived as a political entity.

But despite his sympathy with my point of view, the editor chose to kill my piece. He contended that I had not provided enough hard evidence to support my argument against the entrenched conventional wisdom: that the Vietnamese communists were too determined, the South Vietnamese too corrupt, and the Americans incapable of fighting the kind of war that would have been necessary to prevail.

Now an important new book provides the evidence I lacked. A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America’s Last Years in Vietnam by the military historian Lewis Sorley persuasively refutes the conventional wisdom concerning the Vietnam War. Building on his excellent biographies of Army generals Creighton Abrams and Harold Johnson, Mr. Sorley examines the largely neglected later years of the conflict. He concludes that the war in Vietnam “was being won on the ground even as it was being lost at the peace table and in the US Congress.” Mr. Sorley rectifies an imbalance in the treatment of the Vietnam War. Unfortunately, the specter of Robert McNamara has led analysts to over-emphasize the early years of the war, making rational debate about the Vietnam War as a whole difficult if not impossible. All too often, the history of the war has been derailed over the question of when Mr. McNamara turned against the war and why he didn’t make his views known earlier. But as William Colby observed in a review of Mr. McNamara’s disgraceful memoir, In retrospect, by limiting serious consideration of the military situation in Vietnam to the period before mid-1968, historians leave Americans with a record “similar to what we would know if histories of World War II stopped before Stalingrad, Operation Torch in North Africa and Guadalcanal in the Pacific.” Those studies that examine the period after Tet 1968 emphasize the diplomatic attempts to extricate the US from the conflict, treating the military effort as nothing more than a holding action.

But to truly understand the Vietnam War, it is absolutely imperative to come to grips with the years after 1968. A new team was in place. Gen. Abrams succeeded Gen. William Westmoreland as commander US Military Assistance Command--Vietnam (USMACV) shortly after the Tet offensive. He joined Ellsworth Bunker, who had assumed the post of US ambassador to the Saigon government the previous spring. Mr. Colby, a career CIA officer soon arrived to coordinate the pacification.

Far from constituting a mere holding action, the approach followed by the new team constituted a positive strategy for ensuring the survival of South Vietnam. Ambassador Bunker, Gen. Abrams, and Mr. Colby “brought different values to their tasks, operated from a different understanding of the nature of the war, and applied different measures of merit and different tactics. They employed diminishing resources in manpower, materiel, money, and time as they raced to render the South Vietnamese capable of defending themselves before the last American forces were withdrawn. They went about that task with sincerity, intelligence, decency, and absolute professionalism, and in the process they came very close to achieving the goal of a viable nation and a lasting peace.”

Mr. Sorley focuses less on the shortcomings of Robert McNamara than on those of Gen. Westmoreland, whose tactics, the author claims, squandered four years of public and congressional support for the war. Gen. Westmoreland’s operational strategy emphasized the attrition of North Vietnamese Army (NVA) forces in a “war of the big battalions:” multi-battalion, and sometimes even multi-division sweeps through remote jungle areas in an effort to fix and destroy the enemy. Such “search and destroy” operations were usually unsuccessful, since the enemy could usually avoid battle unless it was advantageous for him to accept it. But they were also costly to the American soldiers who conducted them and the Vietnamese civilians who were in the area.

Gen. Abrams’ approach emphasized not the destruction of enemy forces per se but protection of the South Vietnamese population by controlling key areas. He then concentrated on attacking the enemy’s “logistics nose” (as opposed to a “logistics tail”): since the North Vietnamese lacked heavy transport within South Vietnam, they had to preposition supplies forward of their sanctuaries preparatory to launching an offensive. Fighting was still heavy, as exemplified by two major actions in South Vietnam’s Ashau Valley during the first half of 1969: the 9th Marine Regiment’s Operation DEWEY CANYON and the 101st Airborne Division’s epic battle for “Hamburger Hill.” But now NVA offensive timetables were being disrupted by preemptive allied attacks, buying more time for Vietnamization.

In addition, rather than ignoring the insurgency and pushing the South Vietnamese aside as Gen. Westmoreland had done, Gen. Abrams followed a policy of “one war,” integrating all aspects of the struggle against the communists. The result, says Mr. Sorley was “a better war” in which the United States and South Vietnamese essentially achieved the military and political conditions necessary for South Vietnam’s survival as a viable political entity.

The defenders of the conventional wisdom will reply that Mr. Sorley’s argument is refuted by the fact that South Vietnam did fall to the North Vietnamese communists. They will repeat the claim that the South Vietnamese lacked the leadership, skill, character, and endurance of their adversaries. Mr. Sorley acknowledges the shortcomings of the South Vietnamese and agrees that the US would have had to provide continued air, naval, and intelligence support. But, he contends, the real cause of US defeat was that the Nixon administration and Congress threw away the successes achieved by US and South Vietnamese arms.

The proof lay in the 1972 Easter Offensive. This was the biggest offensive push of the war, greater in magnitude than either the 1968 Tet offensive or the final assault of 1975. The US provided massive air and naval support and there were inevitable failures on the part of some ARVN units, but all in all, the South Vietnamese fought well. Then, having blunted the communist thrust, they recaptured territory that had been lost to Hanoi. Finally, so effective was the eleven-day “Christmas bombing” campaign (LINEBACKER II) later that year that the British counterinsurgency expert, Sir Robert Thompson exclaimed, “you had won the war. It was over.” Three years later, despite the heroic performance of some ARVN units, South Vietnam collapsed against a much weaker, cobbled-together NVA offensive. What happened to cause this reversal?

First, the Nixon administration, in its rush to extricate the country from Vietnam, forced the government of RVN to accept a cease-fire that permitted NVA forces to remain in the south. Then in an act that still shames the United States to this day, Congress cut off military and economic assistance to South Vietnam. Finally, President Nixon resigned over Watergate and his successor, constrained by congressional action, defaulted on promises to respond with force to North Vietnamese violations of the peace terms. Mr. Sorley describes in detail the logistical and operational consequences for the ARVN of our having starved them of promised support for three years.

Mr. Sorley has provided an major challenge to the conventional wisdom. Accordingly, we can expect A Better War to be attacked, or more probably, ignored by those who have a vested interest in portraying the Vietnam War as uniquely brutal and unjust, a conflict the United States deserved to lose to a more virtuous enemy; and those who fought it as either victims or brutal savages.

I have a bumper sticker on my car that reads: “I don’t know what happened. When I left, we were winning!” A Better War demonstrates that such a sentiment is not as farfetched as the conventional wisdom would have it.


Mackubin Thomas Owens is professor of strategy and force planning at the Naval War College in Newport, RI and an adjunct fellow at the Ashbrook Center for Public Affairs at Ashland University. He was director of legislative affairs for the nuclear weapons programs of the Department of Energy from 1985 to 1987.

 
Well folks thanks to Tomahawk6 "the fat lady has sung". This post sums
up completely the impression I formed from reading all the books that I
could get my hands on concerning this war.Why the interest in this war?,
one that Canadians had no involvement,because the US defeat was also
a defeat for the entire western world and damaged the militaries of most
of these western countries.The idea that military power supporting our
economical power was the basis that ensured our continuing prosperity
seemed to become somehow immoral.Has this made us more secure,I think
not,all kinds of groups in the world,Arab terrorists,Somali pirates ,Taliban to
name just a few seem ready to challenge us, safe in the knowledge that
even if we decide to react militarily it will very limited and after absorbing
a few casualties our home support will disappear an we will negotiate and
pull out.This weakness seems to have its roots in the lost war in Vietnam
and bodes ill for the future of our Western democratic way of life.
                                      Regards
 
Limited wars do not seem to have truly positive outcomes.  The real enemy was North Vietnam but was not directly attacked, other than by bombing, for fear of awakening China.  There was an endless supply of soldiers streaming south to continue the war.  Time was simply on the side of North Vietnam.  They had 30 years of war and could wait 30 more.  The US was fighting for the staus quo while their enemy was fighting for victory.  Time simply ran out for the US.

In 2011 time is running out for Canada.  You don't suppose anyone told the Taliban that all they have to do is wait.  There are ways to win civil wars and insurrections but they don't involve winning hearts and minds and playing fair.
 
Back
Top