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Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?

Lightguns said:
Hampton, NB Legion seems to have created a social media storm.  https://www.facebook.com/jamie.keating.92

Mr Keating attempted to be part of service to honour 9 fallen friends from Afghanistan and was told the laying ceremony was for dignities only.  His rant video is making the rounds of CFB Gagetown FB users last night and this morning.

Not all Legions are so........so ignorant towards veterans.....

Here is a good reference to pass on to others who may face similar ignorant personalities:

A Guide to Commemorative Services posted by Veterans Affairs.
 
Lightguns said:
Hampton, NB Legion seems to have created a social media storm.  https://www.facebook.com/jamie.keating.92

Mr Keating attempted to be part of service to honour 9 fallen friends from Afghanistan and was told the laying ceremony was for dignities only.  His rant video is making the rounds of CFB Gagetown FB users last night and this morning.

I know Jamie, we did PLQ together and we have a maintained casual chat on FB every now and then.  Hes a good man,  and I was very sad to see his treatment from this branch.
 
http://www.legion.ca/article/legion-re-affirms-policy-on-placing-wreaths-on-remembrance-day/


Legion Re-Affirms Policy on Placing Wreaths on Remembrance Day


OTTAWA, October 28th, 2016 – The Legion wishes to reaffirm its policy governing the placing of a wreath for Remembrance Day.

“Anyone who wishes to pay their respects to the Fallen during a Remembrance Ceremony are welcomed to do so,” says Royal Canadian Legion Dominion President, Dave Flannigan. “Placing a wreath at any commemorative event is an accepted practice that should be available to all Canadians,” adds Flannigan.

The Royal Canadian Legion follows the Ritual, Awards and Protocol Manual for conducting Remembrance Day ceremonies, which outlines the Order of Service, indicating when official wreaths and wreaths by individuals or organizations can be placed.

Although this procedure applies to the National Ceremony in Ottawa, it can be adapted to meet local Branch arrangements.  Branches organizing local ceremonies are responsible for their individual events.  However, anyone who wishes to place a wreath at a Remembrance Day Ceremony should certainly have the opportunity to do so.
 
I agree that everyone should be allowed to lay a reef but I think that the majority of them should be in place either before the parade or placed after the parade.  I have been on way too many parades where they spend a good 20-30 minutes as every organization and store/union in town lays a wreath. Seeing the poor cadets and older veterans freezing on parade and some cases passing out while the procession of wreaths goes on is not good. Limit the wreaths to the Town, the Legion and save the Hooterville general store till another time.

That is my rant about the parade.
 
Branches 15 and 28 have nicely illustrated the concept of the 'strategic Corporal', and how anyone at any level can influence an organization very positively, or very negatively, entirely disproportionate to their role in the organization as a whole.
 
I'm responsible for Quebec Command's main ceremony in Montreal. I'd just like to make things clear to folks who may not know. Every remembrance ceremony should be following the exact same order of events. The first twelve wreaths belong to the Vice Regal Party and should be announced 1 at a time...not negotiable. The remainder should be laid respecting the time troops, vets and general public have to remain standing relatively still. We have the wreaths that are laid after the VR Party laid two at a time, with legion escorts ensuring they have a moment to pay respect, but keep moving. We have approx 40-45 in total, and that really should be around the max. After the last wreath is laid, we ask for anyone from any other organizations or individuals that wish to lay a wreath, to lay it now. We do not introduce them, but every Canadian has a right to lay a wreath....period.
 
Also, please DO NOT follow the order of precedence that VAC uses on their site. That info did not come from the Legion and it is wrong. The Silver Cross Mother is second to the Queen or her rep....once again, not negociable
 
Wrangler said:
Also, please DO NOT follow the order of precedence that VAC uses on their site. That info did not come from the Legion and it is wrong. The Silver Cross Mother is second to the Queen or her rep....once again, not negociable

Perhaps a discrepancy like that is something the RCL needs to sort out with VAC, rather than simply telling people to ignore the direction from VAC.
 
Wrangler said:
Every remembrance ceremony should be following the exact same order of events.

Why?  Why can there be only one way to remember?

Is the important part ritual, or remembrance?
 
The order of ceremony that is used by Legion's across Canada was developed jointly with DHH to serve as the Remembrance Service for all Canadians. While it is the Legion that runs it, it is not something the Legion can freely alter, nor would want to. If you wish to read up on the protocols set forth, please see this manual. 

http://www.legion.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Ritual_Awards__Protocol_English_Oct_2016.pdf

As for your reference to it being ritual or remembrance? It is in essence both. It is extremely important for everyone to gather to remember first and foremost. However it's equally important to adhere to the ritual as to never allow it to be changed freely by anyone for their own means. Contrary to what some politicians, public, civic groups may think, this is not some show where you can push yourself to the head of the line to look important. There is attempted meddling, and this is not the time nor place for it. This ceremony protects the memory of the Fallen. You don't screw with it.

 
Wrangler said:
The order of ceremony that is used by Legion's across Canada was developed jointly with DHH to serve as the Remembrance Service for all Canadians. While it is the Legion that runs it, it is not something the Legion can freely alter, nor would want to. If you wish to read up on the protocols set forth, please see this manual. 

http://www.legion.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Ritual_Awards__Protocol_English_Oct_2016.pdf

As for your reference to it being ritual or remembrance? It is in essence both. It is extremely important for everyone to gather to remember first and foremost. However it's equally important to adhere to the ritual as to never allow it to be changed freely by anyone for their own means. Contrary to what some politicians, public, civic groups may think, this is not some show where you can push yourself to the head of the line to look important. There is attempted meddling, and this is not the time nor place for it. This ceremony protects the memory of the Fallen. You don't screw with it.

I think the point being made is that the Legion does not own remembrance, remembrance day, or remembrance day ceremonies. Yes, they run the ceremonies in many communities. Some communities though may have particular touches they may wish to add, alter, remove, or resequence as appropriate to what best serves that community.
 
Can we stop. The ranting and raving sounds just like the people being bitched about.

I don't go to the service to listen to any of it. I zone out and remember my friends and family that answered the call and paid for it. I remember comrades, from 37 years of service, that have passed.

Remembrance Day is not about ceremony or laying a wreath for your organization instead of getting the lazy members to attend the gathering. It's about you and your thoughts and is not a day but 7/24s. Let the posers have their day puffing their chests and yelling commands creating the unique confuaion of colour parties that all have their own version of Branch drill.

Well, that's  my  :2c:

Don't forget to stop arguing  for a couple of minutes on the day.
;)
 
So I watched the video this fellow put on Facebook. To me it sounded like he wanted to be a part of the official act of remembrance ceremony. If that's the case, then perhaps the Legion's response wasn't that far off base. That being said, they could have worked with him and come to a mutually agreeable solution.

Of course, we only have one side of the story here...
 
recceguy said:
Can we stop. The ranting and raving sounds just like the people being bitched about.

I don't go to the service to listen to any of it. I zone out and remember my friends and family that answered the call and paid for it. I remember comrades, from 37 years of service, that have passed.

Remembrance Day is not about ceremony or laying a wreath for your organization instead of getting the lazy members to attend the gathering. It's about you and your thoughts and is not a day but 7/24s. Let the posers have their day puffing their chests and yelling commands creating the unique confuaion of colour parties that all have their own version of Branch drill.

Well, that's  my  :2c:

Don't forget to stop arguing  for a couple of minutes on the day.
;)


I know I'm repeating myself, and I apologize in advance, it's an annual thing for me, but ...

The Legion's "ownership" of remembrance day is recent* and doesn't apply to me ... and, yes, thank you, I have a f'ing dog in this fight, which is more than I can say for most people in the RCL.

There is a danger in what the Legion does: the legion is an advocacy group, it advocates for veterans. But: Remembrance Day is NOT about veterans ... it started as a chance to allow veterans to join with families and the sovereign to honour the war dead: and, in Canada, war widows were not part of the "Legion family" because their husbands were not veterans ~ not having made it back in order to be discharged.

The service is simple and consist ONLY of:

    A very brief formal "welcome" which probably includes the national anthem, and may include a reading of "In Flanders Fields."   

    The Act of Remembrance ~ a few lines from a poem (For the Fallen) by Laurence Binyon;

    Two minutes of silence, which may punctuated by two "calls:" the last post and the rouse, and/or by a piper playing a lament; and

    A solemn dismissal, which may include a reading of Ecclesiasticus 44:7: "All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times," if it is not offensive to too many people.

I understand the Legion has "rules:" they are silly, artficial things, made to advance the Legion's advocacy work ... they do not apply to anyone who wants to remember on Remembrance Day.

Everything else, even the wreath laying by the Sovereign and the Silver Cross Mother, is window dressing ... it is right and fitting that both should lay wreathes, and it is right and proper that others, in no particular order ~ everyone else in equal in relation to the dead, ought to do so, too, but it is a detail, not part of the core. Prayers are optional, ditto parades and, especially, marching veterans.

__
* Remembrance Day was started by King George V in 1919, the RCL was founded in 1925
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Remembrance Day is NOT about veterans

I agree. But, I wonder if everyone feels the same way?

Remembrance Day: National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/22329.200.html
9 pages.


Remembrance Day 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112809.0
OP: "happy veterans day to all our Canadian veterans!" November 11, 2013
4 pages.



 
We are discussing the ceremony and how it's run, I question what you perceive as the Legion using that day for advancing in what we believe in and I personally take offense to that. I have run this ceremony for the last 17 years and the day I was asked to coordinate this solemn day I accepted on one condition. This day is for the fallen, and the serving members before us now. It's a day to remember those who have sacrificed for our country. Not only the Fallen have sacrificed, but so many do every day, those now serving at home and abroad. I will not let the Legion, any Veteran's organization, the military or any government change, alter or detract from a very simple ceremony. If for some reason we have someone that wishes to speak, they may talk, but it's a full 20 mins before the service takes place. Nothing is supposed to detract from the ceremony at hand. You may have attended services in the past that were held incorrectly, I apologize for that. Just please don't lump all the work the Legion does into one pot. It is a highly respectful ceremony and I'm sorry you feel like there's too much window dressing.
 
I am sorry, but Edward is correct, Wrangler, you're not.  This day is for the fallen, period.  It's not for celebrating those of us who still or have served and survived.  This day is for is the man who's photo appears in my profile picture and all the others who fell. 

Although the RCL does do good works, and it's important I acknowledge the good they do, do such.  What really hacks me off is their bullying attitude in their defence of what they see as their turf.  The Poppy, for instance.  They're as aggressive and distasteful as the IOC are over anything that could remotely be the Olympic Rings.  I understand the RCL doesn't want anyone to disrespect the Poppy but their aggressiveness is really a big turn off. 

 
 
Wrangler, you may not see it but perhaps you are reflective of the Legion stereotype that drives current and recently-retired troops away from joining -- the whole "my way or the highway" mentality, which is only made worse if there's the appearance that it's coming from someone who has not shared that serving military experience/ethos.

No response required; I've merely suggested some mirror-gazing.  I'll return to silent mode since I confirmed long ago that the Legion isn't for me.


ps - you may want to start considering an update of your inviolable Ritual manual;  your committees may wish to debate the use of "all thy sons command" in the National Anthem lyrics (page 3).
 
I thought Legion Remembrance Day ceremonies were for civilians to impress other civilians with the medals they wear on the right hand side of their sports coat.

:pop:
 
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