Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?

[ModlrMike]

After all, of the legion’s about 254,000 paid members on June 1, 62,000 are listed as “ordinary” members. This category includes those who served in Canada’s military but also retired and serving members of the RCMP, civilian police forces, armed forces of all 28 NATO nations, as well as the Canadian Coast Guard.
There are 700,000 serving and retired Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel. The legion’s website states that almost 100,000 of its members are veterans. However, one insider I talked to estimates that fewer than 35,000 legion members have served in the CAF, or five per cent of the CAF veteran population. Rather than an organization for veterans, the legion exists more like a social club using veterans as props.

I rather think that was the point I was making. I admit that neither my wife or I, with our combined 50+ years of service are members. That's probably because the Legion is not particularly relevant to us. To my mind the Legion, like VAC is stuck in the mindset that once the Korea vets have gone, that's it. No more mandate.

 

[ueo]

IMHO I don't think the RCL even considers Korea vets as part of whatever they think they are. Several KVA branches have folded recently with "Nothing Heard" from the RCL in the same locations. (Barrie springs to mind) The RCL is a civilian social club that is riding on what once was. To have members slagging vets is morally reprehensible! I am a vet (40 yrs) and I have been a member of the RCL for several  years but am seriously reconsidering this position as my local branch has very few members with service. This membership appears more interested in renting out the hall, making $$$ and going to all sorts of high cost meetings held elsewhere on my tick. Concern for vets not so much. Just one man's opinion.

 

[Lumber]

I joined a legion near my house so I could play in the men's dart league on Monday nights. Of the 24+ people playing darts on Monday nights, I do not believe more than half a dozen of us had any military experience whatsoever.

 

[Journeyman]

Rather than an organization for veterans, the legion exists more like a social club using veterans as props.

That sums it up quite succinctly. 

I cannot recall the last time I set foot in a Legion, even on a Remembrance Day.  This recent exposure of the arrogance and nepotism of their senior leadership merely reaffirms my long-held decision to have nothing to do with them.

 

[GAP]

The 82 year old woman isn't giving up.....she was interviewed on CJOB radio this morning

 

[brihard]

I'm fortunate to be in an excellent branch. On the executive or active in the membership we have several veterans of Afghanistan, Yuogslavia, and UN tours. We've got guys who've been through the ringer with OSIs and dealing with VAC. Veterans are well served by my branch. But we seem, sadly, to be an exception. The organization is indeed withering if it cannot rejuvenate.

The creation of the OSI Special Section is a good initiative, and thoseof us involved want to do some good with it. It remains to be seen how much the rest of the organization will embrace it.

 

[Teager]

The creation of the OSI Special Section is a good initiative, and thoseof us involved want to do some good with it. It remains to be seen how much the rest of the organization will embrace it.

I read a little while ago that the legion is charging $10 to vets that want to use this service. I can't remember where I read this but is it true? If so what's the $10 being used for?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I read a little while ago that the legion is charging $10 to vets that want to use this service. I can't remember where I read this but is it true? If so what's the $10 being used for?

I too recall something about $10. Although I don't remember seeing anything when I signed up either. It seems that it's just being mentioned now and very confusingly. Nobody seems to know why we have to pay, or what for. In the meantime, I signed at the beginning but until they can substantiate the fee, I won't be participating. If I get no satisfaction, I'll withdraw and ask them to expunge all my personal info.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Can someone point to an example of how the Legion (or its leadership) has been overtly opposed to veterans ? 

I agree. The Legion is not for me but I am just trying to get the hoopla in this story and I cant see it... 

I do know the Fairview Legion is packed, and I mean packed, most nights of the week (I know this because I live next door to it).  But I have no idea of composition of its membership.

 

[Brasidas]

Can someone point to an example of how the Legion (or its leadership) has been overtly opposed to veterans ? 

I agree. The Legion is not for me but I am just trying to get the hoopla in this story and I cant see it... 

I do know the Fairview Legion is packed, and I mean packed, most nights of the week (I know this because I live next door to it).  But I have no idea of composition of its membership.

My father was mildly interested in the 90s and was made to feel unwelcome. He was explicitly told that he was not a veteran, as a member released with 20 years service. Leadership and membership was primarily the sons of WW2 veterans, said veterans apparently having some disdain for professional soldiers (as opposed to wartime volunteers). This was apparently a common attitude, and is why KVA existed.

Is it a worthless organization? No, I respect the service officers who try to help folks who are injured and need help. The core of the organization, I don't know where to begin. Its an institution whose purpose is itself and its membership, as opposed to what the public by and large may think it is.

 

[chrisf]

I recently joined our local legion.

We moved to a small town and the legion is the primary reason there's a rememberance day ceremony every year.

I'm one of very few members with any military service and I'm one of the youngest members by about 20 years, but they all seem quite friendly and positive.

I absolutely would not have joined had I stayed in a larger city, but id hate to ever see a time when there was no longer a rememberance day and a battle of the Atlantic memorial, so I'll just suck it up, keep my mouth shut about politics, and volunteer for the odd bingo night.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I'm fortunate to be in an excellent branch. On the executive or active in the membership we have several veterans of Afghanistan, Yuogslavia, and UN tours. We've got guys who've been through the ringer with OSIs and dealing with VAC. Veterans are well served by my branch. But we seem, sadly, to be an exception. The organization is indeed withering if it cannot rejuvenate.

The creation of the OSI Special Section is a good initiative, and thoseof us involved want to do some good with it. It remains to be seen how much the rest of the organization will embrace it.

Maybe those of you involved, need to rise up and not fear certain thugs, and you know who I am talking about.  THis is a phenomenal idea, except the wheel is already been invented by DND/CAF in 2011, the real OSISS, and they don't charge ten duccats....

Other veterans have raised concerns about the value of some of the services the legion provides.

The organization has created a new Operation Stress Injury Special Section for those with PTSD and related injuries. The special section does not actually provide health care, but will direct veterans to already available services. The legion is charging a $10 administrative fee for those who want the service. The legion declined to explain why veterans suffering from PTSD are required to pay the fee .

In addition, Craig Hood, whose nomination as interim first vice president for the section is expected to be approved at the convention, has denounced on the National Post website a veteran’s advocate who suffers from PTSD, as well as another injured veteran. He labelled them “as morons.”

Hood’s Facebook page also includes a posting from another individual about those same veterans, who have criticized legion practices, labelling them as “f…tards and losers.”

Hood did not comment. Dominion Command acknowledged it is aware of Hood’s comments about fellow veterans but declined to denounce them.

Brian, grow a set, and caste away that cabal of thugs.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I recently joined our local legion.

We moved to a small town and the legion is the primary reason there's a rememberance day ceremony every year.

I'm one of very few members with any military service and I'm one of the youngest members by about 20 years, but they all seem quite friendly and positive.

I absolutely would not have joined had I stayed in a larger city, but id hate to ever see a time when there was no longer a rememberance day and a battle of the Atlantic memorial, so I'll just suck it up, keep my mouth shut about politics, and volunteer for the odd bingo night.

BZ!

The Legion is not alone in its struggles: http://activehistory.ca/2012/11/crumbling-communities-declining-service-club-membership/

 

[Lightguns]

BZ!

The Legion is not alone in its struggles: http://activehistory.ca/2012/11/crumbling-communities-declining-service-club-membership/

My wife's club, Jemseg Lions, is 21 members down from 140 in the 80s.  Average age 71 excluding her and one other.  They struggle to have enough volunteers for 1 bingo on Friday's, 1 breakfast a month and 1 general meeting. 

 

[ModlrMike]

For service clubs, less the Legion, I wonder how much of it is due to government's expansion of social services as well. Many service clubs provided services that were not previously covered by government. Much like how churches in the early 70s were elbowed out of the community services realm by well meaning bureaucrats. The upshot was that inefficient, over arching government replaced church and community groups, with the predictable outcome of less service being provided at the end of the day.

 

[Lumber]

I would also submit that declining membership has to do with advances in technology and social media.

People used to go to the Legion so that they could connect with like minded people.

No need for that any more with the internet, email, smartphones, facebook, and Army.Ca.

There, I've solved it. Army.ca has caused the decline of the RCL.

[

 

[daftandbarmy]

I would also submit that declining membership has to do with advances in technology and social media.

People used to go to the Legion so that they could connect with like minded people.

No need for that any more with the internet, email, smartphones, facebook, and Army.Ca.

There, I've solved it. Army.ca has caused the decline of the RCL.

[

That, and the end of prohibition.

The Legion used to be the only place in town with a liquor license. Talk about a monopoly on fun!

 

[mariomike]

The Legion used to be the only place in town with a liquor license.

From Wikipedia:
"Historically the Legion Hall was the social centre of many Canadian towns. This was especially the case in the provinces with severe restrictions on the sale of alcohol, rules from which the legions were generally exempt."

The area I live in was dry until 2000. The Legion was the only place you could get a drink. Now, there are bars all over the area. 

Branch 46 in Swansea ( constructed as a BESL in 1927 ) 1949 photo caption: "Swansea branch of the Canadian Legion which meets here, has decided to apply for a license to sell beer, according to President C.E. Wright. He said members were 'driven to it by attitude of villagers.' "  ( Although now a part of the City of Toronto, Swansea was a village until 1967, )
The report says the Vice President "resigned in protest". It goes on to say that the Branch had contacted over 20 firms. But, they refused to give the Legion a mortgage. They could only get a mortgage on the condition that a beer licence was applied for.
The Reeve of Swansea said council was against the Legion having a beer licence.

That was the local Branch in my little neighborhood. Tiny parking lot. Everybody walked to it. Closed their doors a few years ago.

"After 85 years, the Swansea legion closes its doors for good.

Legion sold due to rising costs, low membership"
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/4231988-after-85-years-the-swansea-legion-closes-its-doors-for-good/

Photo of the exterior:
http://www.swansea.ca/gallery_Community_157.htm

With the introduction of "smoke free" by-laws in bars, there was discussion that the RCL might be exempted from the new rule.
That did not happen, so the RCL did not get the business of smokers when bars went no smoking.
"I come here for the socializing. My friends don't show up any more because of the non-smoking. So I come in less and less.":
http://carleton.ca/Capital_News/02112001/feature.shtml

"Dismayed that Legion Halls are included among the places where smoking will be banned effective May 31, 2006, veterans are among the most vocal critics of the new law.":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1118256271906_113665471/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

I remember a Legion guy telling me at the time that they were looking forward to the new no-smoking laws because they assumed, like the old alcohol laws, that the Legion would be exempt. ie: The smokers would be forced to head to the Legion when the bars went smoke-free.

 

[Danjanou]

I was hoping to stay out of this. I really should be dealing with more important things like getting ready to go to the Dominion Convention in Nfld, where apparently there may now be some interesting conversations both on and off the convention floor. However I once held a leadership role in the military, I now hold one in both the RCL and on this site and therefore should not ignore situations as they develop but try and address them.

Okay I am not going to comment or discuss reporting procedures, journalism fact checking and/or possible conflicts of interest. Especially as long time long time members of the site are aware of the past history with a certain unnamed journalist.

Some basic facts. Regardless of what type of memberships one has in the RCL there are only two ways it can be revoked.  One is voluntary as several here have done one just quits. You stop going, stop paying dues and eventually you are no longer a member. Should at a later date you wish to join or rejoin then you are entitled to do so.

The second is involuntary and it's not that simple.  No one, no matter what position they hold can arbitrarily say you're out.  Under RCL bylaws open and available to anyone to read on their website http://www.legion.ca/resources/ are the details for filing a complaint under Article 3. Any Legion member in good standing with due cause may file a formal complaint against another member.

A complaint may, on reasonable and probable grounds allege one or more of the following offences: i. breach of clubhouse rules or privileges; ii. Profane or disorderly conduct in or about any place where any event is being carried on under Legion auspices or control; iii. Breach of his obligations to the Legion or of these By-Laws; iv. Knowingly lodging a false complaint against a member; v. conduct which in any way brings or tends to bring the Legion into discredit; and/or  vi. Theft or misappropriation of Poppy funds, Legion funds or property.

The complaint will be reviewed by the appropriate level, Branch, Provincial Command, or Dominion command and if found to have some merit will proceed. If not it will be dismissed as many minor incidents are. First step offered is voluntary mediation between parties involved.  Should that fail then a hearing will take place, evidence heard and a decision rendered. This process may sound familiar.

Should the complaint be found valid then a punishment against the member in question may be levied. These range from a verbal or written apology. Suspension of club room privileges, suspension of membership and in very rare and extreme cases expulsion from the Legion.

Any person found guilty after this due process naturally has the right to appeal the decision rendered against them. There is a set process for this as well with all steps and timeliness documented.

So despite what I have read both in the original print articles and the various online SMEs since, I can presume based on facts that the following actually happened. The member in question had for whatever reason an Article 3 complaint levied against them. It apparently went to a hearing and if the article is to be believed a decision of suspension or expulsion was levied. This would suggest either the Hearing Committee didn't do a good job, which will come out in an appeal, or the offence was a rather serious one. As to why no comments from the RCL are forthcoming it is most likely the appeal process is underway  and therefore no public comments that may affect that process would be allowed to ensure  a fair and equitable  decision is rendered.

Now let's deal with the other stuff.  Okay yes there are probably some unqualified persons holding positions of authority in the RCL. They got there same as some CF persons reached high rank, by just sticking it out, playing the game which I once heard called "militia survivor." Just hang around long enough and outlast all potential opponents and you end up at the top of the heap whether you are qualified to be there or not.

The general apathy but internally in the RCL amongst members who are willing to bitch and complain, but unwilling to step up and take on a role almost ensures this.  Externally the same thing exists. A loud minority at least of the 600,000+ odd Veterans in this country who are not in the RCL have no problems demeaning the place but are equally unwilling to join up put their considered skills sets and expertise to use to change and improve things. As a crusty WO I knew, and who as he is an RCL member and will be at Convention I look forward to seeing again, once said "You're either part of the solution of part of the problem."

Big surprise re vets squabbling and calling each other names all over social media.  Someone noted the RCL lost its relevance to the modern vet due to social media. In the old days they'd bitch at each other over the table of knowledge in the corner of the club room and as wobbly pops went down range said "discussions" would become less polite. These days same thing done from behind a keyboard or smart phone.

I've been sadly watching this now longer than I wanted to here and elsewhere. Name calling and empire building are only the surface. I've seen Vets set up multiple fake accounts on social media, to reinforce their point of opinion and/or support their attacks on others, and admitted same. Others have sent insulting comments and threats of physical violence on other vets and their family members, and complaints levied against employers. When called on this many use the excuse of illness or injuries to validate their reprehensible actions.

In all it is immature if not infantile behaviour by that segment of society whom by virtue to their service should be above that, and to be honest I find it disgusting. For the first time in my life, I am ashamed to call myself a Canadian Veteran, not a member of NVOC, or a member of my regimental association(s) or even a member of the RCL, but a Veteran as that lumps me in with several self-serving individuals whose actions, not matter how motivated, and/or justified that they may feel they are, are in the end disgusting. It also lumps majority that seem to have some sort of immediate knee jerk reaction to any bovine excrement said or published without even a cursory check on it first.

It is also counterproductive. Anyone with a sense of history would see we are now back to 1919-26 with a literal alphabet of vets organizations, RCL, CVA, NVOC, Green Legion,  CPKA, CANVET, et cetera et cetera, all squabbling over petty differences, self-interests,  and pathetic crumbs and whom do not serve the needs of the veteran community, or the nation as a whole.

Okay now if you wish you can go back to sharpening your pitchforks and getting the torches ready again. I'm going back to packing.

 

[Journeyman]

I was hoping to let your blood pressure drop a bit, but hey, you know I loves ya.  :-*

I was hoping to stay out of this.

Why?  You're the most senior RCL person that I know.  As one who 'believes,' I would have expected you here sooner to clarify policies/defend the organization, rather than let the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune build.

While the initial comments -- on this latest go-around -- were initially sparked by that  "journalist," many of the subsequent comments here have focused on the declining relevance to veterans (notably the comment I cited about it being a social club using the military as a prop).


Regardless, I personally look forward to seeing if you have any update to provide when you get back from the rock.  :cheers: