When is Annual leave required for Military events?

[gmandnd007]

This is for Reg Force, I'm not sure if this pretains to reserve force.
When I was posted to Pet, or Gag or been anywhere else and there was a military function we got approval and we attended.
For example the Mess is putting on a Golf day. If you are granted permission to attend are you required to take annual leave? If no, give me a reference or some meat to back that up.
I'm EME and in the past have always gone to EME golf, bonspiel, hockey. Never had to take leave and was usually TD. My new posting I was told I'm on my own time my own dime. I'm ok with the own time but having to take leave really boggles my mind.
So there are two examples if anyone has any imput feel free, I should mention that my direct superior and his superior are both civies.

 

[Sunnyns]

It's up to your chain of command if they support it or not.  We've done unit sports days at other clubs and if you sign up or it's not optional, your given a meet up time and everyone meets there.  If your requesting to do something not organized through your chain of command such as volunteer then you can do it via memo and that is your approval to do so. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

CF Leave Policy Manual

If your unit is saying "own dime, own time", that means you won't get $ or time off work = "take Ann Leave if you plan to attend".

Not sure how your unit works, but have you considered going to the Unit WO/MWO and asking their opinion?  I've also worked in the mixed CAF/Civie CofC world before and found the best way to approach these things was thru the CAF rank CofC.  My unit did things like Adventure Trg days, bowling, etc and the rule of thumb was "if you aren't attending, you shall be at your place of work".  CAF mbr's being away from work for things like this without using Ann Lve time can be a friction point with non-CAF folks who are bound by CBAs, etc.

This is a Sgt & WOs Mess function, the CWO may have secured permission from the Boss for CAF mbrs to attend and it be a sanctioned CAF event.  That would (should?) negate the requirement to 'take leave'.

 

[Lightguns]

This is becoming more and more the norm.  Recently, our sigs guys + 1 retired sigs civie employee were denied TD and sanctioned worktime to attend a Sigs Assoc Curling.  They had gotten it every year before this request.  It came down from Leslie before he pulled pin that this is a mis-use of time off for special events.  Only non-DND events that cost nothing, are off base and make the CF look good would be supported, otherwise take annual.

The Liberals are really not going to like that guy if he ever gets control of their purse strings!

 

[captloadie]

I do think things are chaning, partly due to fiscal restraint, and partly due to fiscal responsibility. At least in my unit, if you are going on a sponsored/approved event (Wing teams, CISM, etc), there is still funding. You want to go to the Logspiel, Branch Golf tournament, etc, your on your own dime, and likely your own time. I think the last golf tournament out of town, the CO granted 1 day short, and you  had to take 1 annual day. Even using unit vehicles is becoming sticky, depending on how strickly the regs are applied. Technically, DND vehicles can only be used for authorized duties/details. When you are on leave, you can't also be on duty, therefore technically, the vehicle isn't on a duty run.

 

[gmandnd007]

Pretty Sad! The TD is nice but I'm more concerned about the time off. Yes I enjoy the sports but just as much I like conecting with members from the base or branch depending on the occasion. To bad when people loose site of that. Because I'm the only one in green here surrounded by civies I'm told I can't have things they don't get. Well funny but the people that fall under me also make $15K more a year than me. I'd like that to be fair too.  If everyone had to take leave to go to a mess or branch function during the week no one would go.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Because I'm the only one in green here surrounded by civies I'm told I can't have things they don't get.

That is utter BS IMO and I'd heard the same thing in a previous unit to which I said "if you want to attend military stuff, all you have to do is..join the military!" 

As I said I'd be hunting down the Sgt Major/RSM to get their take. 

 

 

[dapaterson]

So, as I understand the situation:  You want to take a day off work to play golf.  You are told that, in order to do so, you must take a day off work.

Somehow, in the Reg F culture of entitlement, this is offensive.  Imagine the indignity, being expected to go to work!


I suggest you write to the Globe and Mail and complain about this mistreatment.  I'm certain that you will draw a great deal of attention to this ongoing injustice.

 

[Remius]

I've worked in places where the CO would authorise early stand down on long weekend fridays.  And others that didn't.  The ones that didn't were always seen as somehow being miserly and rules sticklers even though there is absolutely no entitlement to leave early.

I guess it's a case of being used to a certain perk you've always had until you find out you never had any right to it to start. A lot of people feel screwed over when they haven't been. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So, as I understand the situation:  You want to take a day off work to play golf.  You are told that, in order to do so, you must take a day off work.

Somehow, in the Reg F culture of entitlement, this is offensive.  Imagine the indignity, being expected to go to work!


I suggest you write to the Globe and Mail and complain about this mistreatment.  I'm certain that you will draw a great deal of attention to this ongoing injustice.

Reg Force 'culture of entitlement'?  :  Please; I've spent enough time in both PRes and Reg force to have done similar things (a Mess/unit event during a 'work day') that was given the *ok* by the CofC, and one of them slightly over a full week in length (Adventure Training while in a Cl B/A, and it was with a PRes unit).  Each event was authorized by the appropriate level in the CofC. 

1 day for a Mess Function doesn't seem either (a) unreasonable or (b) uncommon and I also will suggest this isn't  a 'Big R / little r' issue. 

I find this post somewhat "out of character" for you. 

 

[Wolseleydog]

Just to throw in another two cents -- if your unit wants it to be leave you could request one day special.

 

[PuckChaser]

Just to throw in another two cents -- if your unit wants it to be leave you could request one day special.

And what para in the leave manual would he be entitled to special leave? Academic Advancement? Mission Travel?

Or maybe you meant he should ask for a short day....?

 

[Drag]

Reg Force 'culture of entitlement'? 

I can see what dapaterson is referring to...  I worked at a unit where civilian cuts, reserve cuts and internal RCAF PY "reallocation" effectively cut the establishment by 20% with no decrease in workload.  The pers most vocal about the need to cut back customer service hours, and services provided in general, were also the loudest to complain about limiting pers to only one base team per season and cutting back on Friday afternoon sliders.

I've seen pers that between, intramural leagues, base teams and CISM, for months long stretches would be away playing sports as much as they would actually be working, and this would be in trades that provide critical every day services.  When does and job stop being a job and starts being a sports scholarship.

 

[Sunnyns]

What I have learned in my career, bosses change and with that new outlooks on things come into play.  You may one year have a nose to the grind boss that does not believe in giving you the day to play sports or other things.  Next you may get a boss that loves sports and encourages everyone to join teams and will give you time off for it.  Enjoy it if you get a boss that will give you time off and respect the fact that your new boss may not.  We've gotten ski weeks that did not require us to take time off and now where I'm at, if you want time off for a sport you have to take leave.  It's just the way of things, put in a request for special leave and if you get then great if not well.... take a day of leave if you really want to do it.

 

[Wolseleydog]

@PuckChaser, Quite so.  I meant short.

 

[gmandnd007]

So, as I understand the situation:  You want to take a day off work to play golf.  You are told that, in order to do so, you must take a day off work.

Somehow, in the Reg F culture of entitlement, this is offensive.  Imagine the indignity, being expected to go to work!


I suggest you write to the Globe and Mail and complain about this mistreatment.  I'm certain that you will draw a great deal of attention to this ongoing injustice.

Honestly! Your comment is very disrespectful and not helpful at all. If you think that having a day to support your mess, create camaraderie and create relationships is too much for a Reg Force person you should join the Reg force to see whats it's like to do this 24/7. This indignity is my job this isn't something I do for fun 1 night a week.
I am forced to pay mess dues, I don't many civilian organizations that are forced to pay into a club. But if you are a member of the club it's nice to partake in club offerings. The mess is a military staple and is more than just a place to sit and drink beer. This is where we form friendships, camaraderie, discuss work matters and network etc. The mess functions within our working hours which is 24/7 and mess functions can take place anytime of the day. That being said there can be a mess function on your Anniversary, child's Birthday or other personal day that may be important to you but you are forced to attend the mess function. That's fine and part of our work environment and is very acceptable because we all support our messes financially and with our time.
So yes to pay $80 (some of that goes back to the mess) along with my monthly dues for a mess function which happened to be golf this time during working hours I don't think was asking for anything out of the norm for a soldier.
Also we don't contact the media and complain that's something other groups do.

 

[gmandnd007]

I can see what dapaterson is referring to...  I worked at a unit where civilian cuts, reserve cuts and internal RCAF PY "reallocation" effectively cut the establishment by 20% with no decrease in workload.  The pers most vocal about the need to cut back customer service hours, and services provided in general, were also the loudest to complain about limiting pers to only one base team per season and cutting back on Friday afternoon sliders.

I've seen pers that between, intramural leagues, base teams and CISM, for months long stretches would be away playing sports as much as they would actually be working, and this would be in trades that provide critical every day services.  When does and job stop being a job and starts being a sports scholarship.

Obviously there has to be some happy medium. Some people are gifted atheletes and are granted alot of time to promote their unit or bases participation in some sports.
This is not the case here, this is a mess function. There is never a question when your told to return to work late at night for a mess meeting or dinner. People are charged for missing a mess event. The charge can cost quite a bit and there are some really good examples out there.

 

[Journeyman]

People are charged for missing a mess event.

There's going to be summary trial if you don't go to a Mess golf game?  I'd take that charge.

 

[Remius]

I'm confused.  Is this a mandatory mess event?

 

[Shamrock]

Honestly! Your comment is very disrespectful and not helpful at all. If you think that having a day to support your mess, create camaraderie and create relationships is too much for a Reg Force person you should join the Reg force to see whats it's like to do this 24/7. This indignity is my job this isn't something I do for fun 1 night a week.
I am forced to pay mess dues, I don't many civilian organizations that are forced to pay into a club. But if you are a member of the club it's nice to partake in club offerings. The mess is a military staple and is more than just a place to sit and drink beer. This is where we form friendships, camaraderie, discuss work matters and network etc. The mess functions within our working hours which is 24/7 and mess functions can take place anytime of the day. That being said there can be a mess function on your Anniversary, child's Birthday or other personal day that may be important to you but you are forced to attend the mess function. That's fine and part of our work environment and is very acceptable because we all support our messes financially and with our time.
So yes to pay $80 (some of that goes back to the mess) along with my monthly dues for a mess function which happened to be golf this time during working hours I don't think was asking for anything out of the norm for a soldier.
Also we don't contact the media and complain that's something other groups do.

I'm afraid I agree with his sentiment. 

CF members are entitled to considerable periods of paid time off (over a month per year is annual leave).  It isn't until 27 years of service that a civilian employee gets as much leave as a member of the CF - and that's not including short and additional special.  Add to that the unlimited sick leave and very generous compassionate members are getting. 

However, this time off is fast becoming not good enough for the troops.  The feeling is that annual leave is sacrament - that no work, personal/professional development, or personal admin is to be conducted on these days.  To whit, I have seen requests for compassionate to attend a sick girlfriend.  I have seen soldiers offended they can't get a buckshee day to get their car fixed.  I have seen soldiers request days back because their boss called them on the phone for 5 minutes.