Whats wrong with our army?

[arctictern]

How can they expect to get a bigger army when the recruits have to wait months or even years before they get a job offer.


I wish I'd just get my call, I am ready to go, if they called me tomorrow and wanted me to leave the same day I would, I'd leave tonight if I had to!

 

[hoote]

The way I look at it is if they are going to give you a gun (maybe explosives too), and the knowhow to use them, they want to make sure they have the right person.  So not only does a person have to be fit, he has to be intelligent enough, responsible enough, and have the right attitude otherwise it is a waste of the army's and that person's time.  That is my opinion.  I have found that any similar type of profession (Local Police, CSIS, RCMP) all take a while to get on.  In fact, my brother's RCMP application process took over a year and a half and he isn't the only one!  So I think waiting 3 or 4 months is not too bad considering how significant a life style change it will be.

By the way, how long have you been waiting?  I haven't heard of anyone waiting years unless they had a serious medical, psychological, criminal, etc. concern.

 

[Pieman]

  So I think waiting 3 or 4 months is not too bad considering how significant a life style change it will be.

If it really did take only 3 or 4 months then you may have a point. It seems the average time to get in reg force is 9 months. (I base that guessimate by what i read here, any official figures out there?)  There are other applications that take well over a year to get in.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

No, the CF recruiting system has stalled and is failing. When I went from Reserve to the Regs, in the early 70's, it took about two weeks to get the paperwork done and get an offer, and the testing and paperwork hasn't changed that much. I had to wait a month to report because the trade wasn't open at the time. We were also processing a lot more people then. It was also all done by hand, no computers back then. When I tried to get back in the Reserve in 91, it took over a year. There are serious problems that no one wants to tackle.

 

[pbi]

From the perspective of a Res CBG that has struggled with slow intake procdures, the main problem seems to be the "choke point" of  the medical review process in Borden. Here is my take on that (I stand to be corrected) The Treasury Board (the Federal Govt's business managers and money people) hate to hire any body into Federal service who might represent  a claim for compensation down the road. Therefore, there is an almost paranoid obsession with any pre-existing condition whatsoever. Some of the examples that I have been briefed on were, IMHO as a "layman", ridiculous. In order to vet out any medical issues, all recruit applications are screened by the medical review staff of Canadian Forces Recruiting Group (CFRG) in Borden. To the best of my knowldge, this cell is grossly undermanned and has no capacity to handle the current high volume of applicants. The result is delays that are extremely frustrating to the applicant, to the unit and to the CBG. Last year Comd LFWA took the collected concerns of his three Res CBG Comds to the CLS, who in turn discussed them with Comd CFRG. CFRG dispatched a Col to adress Comd LFWA's O Gp. I sat in on the meeting: the CFRG rep professed surprise at the level of anger and frustration.

Anyway, it's not fixed yet, and I really wonder how our CFRG will deal with an emergency surge, since it has no inherent exapansion capacity (ie: There are no "Reserve Recruiting Units" that can be called up to augment the CFRG) and is apparently being strangled by its own inadequate medical apparatus.

Cheers.

 

[Fruss]

I think the wait might be a little long for some, but you have to get the applicant to wait..  If it takes 2-3 weeks to complete everything, everyone who gets up in the morning with a sudden urge to join the army will be able to do so faster than saying Rabbit!!

If you have them wait a couple of months, even 5-6-7 months, you're sure you only have the one who really wants to be in the army and the not so in the mood will stop the procedures by themselves.. 

That's what happened to me many years ago, when I tried to join the reserve..  I wanted to join the army, the reserve was what fitted the most for me, I just wanted to wear the uniform or something like that..  After 6 months, the army asked me to redo my tests again, I just said, screw it, so the process stopped there!!  I know I wouldn't have been a good candidate back then..

That's my 2 cents..

Cheers

Frank

 

[AndrewD83]

I agree with the above posters.  Having a longer wait time may be beneficial to weed out those who wake up in the morning with a sudden urge to try something new... without really being fully committed or realizing what exactly the are getting into.

Plus when you jump through all those government hoops and patiently 'hurry up and wait' for a year or so it makes wearing the uniform that much more special.

 

[Tracker]

pbi has some good points, but, if you look at the amount of money Veterans Affairs is paying out to todays "Veterans," you probably would be a little gun shy too, If I were running the show, I would also be careful that I didn't take in someone with an existing med problem and then pay them a pension for aggravating it.

I thought the bottle neck for the Reserves was taken care of.  Don't they enroll Reserve applicants before the med file returns if they have a clean bill of health?

 

[pbi]

pbi has some good points, but, if you look at the amount of money Veterans Affairs is paying out to todays "Veterans," you probably would be a little gun shy too, If I were running the show, I would also be careful that I didn't take in someone with an existing med problem and then pay them a pension for aggravating it.

I thought the bottle neck for the Reserves was taken care of. Don't they enroll Reserve applicants before the med file returns if they have a clean bill of health?

Tracker: Agreed on your first point, but the machinery for making these determinations is suspect. On your second point: you are quite right, and I had forgotten all about "Conditional Enrollment". This is now in effect and should go some way toward easing the congestion and frustration.

Andrew and Frank: I think you are arguing from "what is" to "what should be". Implying that the sclerotic system was somehow providing a "cooling off period" for hasty decisions is normalizing failure and giving no credit whatsoever to applicants. I have spent the last two and a bit years dealing with these issues at Brigade level and I can assure you that the delays were neither acceptable nor useful. Cheers.

 

[arctictern]

I agree with the above posters.  Having a longer wait time may be beneficial to weed out those who wake up in the morning with a sudden urge to try something new... without really being fully committed or realizing what exactly the are getting into.

Plus when you jump through all those government hoops and patiently 'hurry up and wait' for a year or so it makes wearing the uniform that much more special.

I agree with that a bit but I remember when I did my interview there was a guy there who didn't know what he was getting into so the recruit took him out of his interview and sat him down in front of the computer and showed him all the videos.

 

[CL84]

Daryl, I don't think anything is 'wrong' with our Army. The recruiting process is really slow, slower for some, faster for others, but still I think you can find a good reason for it. This way, we aren't getting anyone who really doesn't want to be there, the wait time gives you lots of time to think about your choice. Although I wish it was faster for myself, I'm glad it happened the way it did, so I could give my choice the due consideration it deserved, rather than just saying 'hey I feel like joining the Army and quitting this factory job I'm in,' joining then realising hey Holy **** is this what I want?

I applied in April 2004, completed my tests in June, became med approved and merrit listed Aug 23rd, and got my offer Sep 28th. I leave Oct 31st (sunday) and my course starts Nov 2nd. Reg Infantry The RCR. I am thankful that it went as 'fast' as it did, but I agree with your frustration. During my process I had the same feelings; like being really mad, frustrated and feeling like my life is on hold, tired of working jobs I didn't want to be at etc.

Just wait man, your time will come. Keep yourself busy, keep a positive attitude, and well...

Hurry up and wait like everyone else. 

Good luck

 

[Fruss]

pbi: maybe you're right, I don't know exactly why there's a wait..  Maybe it's not legitimate..  But the WAIT is a good thing..  I never said that the reasons for it are good as I don't know them..

In order to discard the "bad" applicants, you, unfortunatly, have to make the good ones wait too. Everyone has to go through the same process.

Frank

 

[Pieman]

But the WAIT is a good thing..  I never said that the reasons for it are good as I don't know them..

In order to discard the "bad" applicants, you, unfortunately, have to make the good ones wait too. Everyone has to go through the same process.

I totally disagree with this. Making young, energetic, people with a drive for success are going to have more than just the Army as an opportunity in their life. Do you really think that a person who has a lot of options is going to sit around and just wait for the CF to process their forms?

'No sorry, I can't take a 3 year contract to judge supermodel bathing suit contests....my CF application is in and I am waiting...could be any year now.'

Also, people who are recent graduates from university and want to enter a DEO program often have a high debt load. They simply have to get into a career that makes money quickly, and like any career that takes a commitment. If one takes a good job for a large company and simply walks away from it, that is very irresponsible, and they will certainly have a hard time getting a job in that field again. They simply cannot afford to sit around and wait for the CF.

The CF loses about 30% of the applicants in the recruiting process, with the vast majority of them giving up out of frustration. Do you really think that all these people were just 'bad' applicants and not serious about it? Or is it  more likely that they saw how foolish the recruiting process is, and felt that the rest of the CF must be like that. If the rest of the CF works like the recruiting process I would seriously reconsider my application.

 

[pbi]

Pieman states the case pretty much as I see it. We are crazy if we accept and normalize systemic inadequacy as though some kind of allegedly good result comes from it. If young Canadians show the interest to serve their country, the least we can do is get our own act in gear.  If they really aren't suitable: well---that's what recruit depot is for. How our system would ever react to an emergency surge is beyond me. Cheers.

 

[Tracker]

How are you going to fix the problem?  I suggest that those people who are having a problem with the recruiting system seek avenues of redress.  If enough people complain to the right office, it might get fixed.

 

[pbi]

How are you going to fix the problem? I suggest that those people who are having a problem with the recruiting system seek avenues of redress. If enough people complain to the right office, it might get fixed.

If you look at my earlier post, you will see that the chain of command brought the issue to Comd LFWA, who took it to the CLS, wo took it to Comd CFRG. "Supporting Fires" have included SCONDVA, Reserve 2000, the Minister's Monitoring Committee, numerous Honorary Colonels, Reserve unit COs, Res CBG Comds and their staffs, applicants and their families. There have also been various mentions in the media.

The only practical solution is to increase the size of the "aperture" created by CFRG's capacity. This means:

- beefing up the medical review capability, including hiring civilian doctors. If civ doctors can approve firefighters, police, oilfield workers and others in hazardous or "exposed" occupations, they can be instructed on how to review military recruits;

-devolve medical review to more than one location, with a Med IG to check on standards periodically;

-increase the capacity of the recruiting machinery by raising Reserve Recruiting Augmentation Detatchments, composed of Class A  and B Res who can be employed to beef up the throughput capacity, and who will provide a base for expansion in an emergency surge. At present no such capacity exists, as far as I know;

-hire more background investigators to speed the security checks, as these are particularly important and must not be sacrificed for expediency;and

-make recruiting a high profile, rewarded duty (as the USMC does) for RegF people.

That should do it.

Cheers.

 

[bossi]

We are crazy if we accept and normalize systemic inadequacy as though some kind of allegedly good result comes from it.

How ironic that one's first impression of the Army would be ... "hurry up and wait" ... (chuckle)

If young Canadians show the interest to serve their country, the least we can do is get our own act in gear. 

No, really?  Why would we want a recruit to receive his first pay cheque in anything under three months ... when MacDonald's/Harvey's/Wal-Mart pays them after two weeks, plus gives them benefits ... and a uniform?

If they really aren't suitable: well---that's what recruit depot is for.

AAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!! NO, NO, NO, NO - there are simply too many misguided individuals who take it upon themselves to fail as many recruits as possible (perhaps to prove how tough they are) ... instead of the extraordinary challenge of turning raw civilian into polished soldiers by teaching, guiding and inspring them.
It's easy to break a person mentally or physically - it's much more difficult to build them into something better.
When the very survival of our Army and Regiments depends on getting more troops to task, we need to improve the things we can control (e.g. the enrolment system, and recruit training).
After all, recruits are only human, so are we, and every single one of us was a fresh-faced civvie once ...

How our system would ever react to an emergency surge is beyond me.

Stop.  You're scaring me.  You mean our tried-and-true method of turning the Horse Palace into barracks wouldn't work again ... ?

 

[CL84]

Yeah, I agree with everything you've mentioned Tracker. Things do need a change, and the recruiting system does need to be sped right up for sure. I agree.

But, that's not the way things are right now. Right now, everyone who is waiting for that call, or mad at how long the system takes or frustrated with recruiters or the system in general, wait, just wait, your time will come and it will be worth it. Surviving the recruiting process is probobly one great thing to be proud of anyways. Hopefully things can change but again, until that happens, this is the way things are right now. So just make the best of your waiting period, and stay positive.

Good luck everyone  

 

[pbi]

AAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!! NO, NO, NO, NO - there are simply too many misguided individuals who take it upon themselves to fail as many recruits as possible (perhaps to prove how tough they are) ... instead of the extraordinary challenge of turning raw civilian into polished soldiers by teaching, guiding and inspring them.
It's easy to break a person mentally or physically - it's much more difficult to build them into something better.
When the very survival of our Army and Regiments depends on getting more troops to task, we need to improve the things we can control (e.g. the enrolment system, and recruit training).
After all, recruits are only human, so are we, and every single one of us was a fresh-faced civvie once ...

bossi---you're confusing me again. Do you really think that CFRC serves a bigger filtering role than initial exposure to recruit training does, or that it even should? Or are you being sarcastic......(Ok-I know you don't do that, but....) ;D Any more silly thoughts and you're not getting your half. Cheers.

 

[teltech]

Perhaps in the same vein - Why the large delay in processing CT's? If the candidate has already passed the medical and security check as a reservist, with perhaps has a tour under his/her belt, shouldn't it be a case of "turn in your regimental kit and report to St Jean / Meaford (sorry! ) / your new unit" within, say, two weeks? I would think that the regs would be chomping at the bit to take pers that already have some training, and get them into the units ASAP.

If CT's have been streamlined, and my rant is now obsolete, please disregard.