What does a PLQ mean anymore?

[orange.paint]

Prior to starting I will just say this:
I love being a soldier,its all I ever wanted to do.
I believe I'm pretty good at my job,well respected by those who have worked with me.
I don't usually (yes usually) *****. (b word for complain )

As a Cpl in the armoured corp with a PLQ (I graduated last week top candidate) my job somehow resembles that of .....well...the same things I was doing prior.As a plq qualified cpl I can now give drill,teach classes but job related stuff I am still a gunner/driver.

Now here at the armoured school things are different,and when I say different I mean retarded.As in last course in Petersville we had PLQ qualified guys driving coyote.I myself was told I was being sent to teach as my new position only to find out I'm now the ration guy,same job I just left.Now is it a hard job?Definitely not.Hard to haul my *** out of bed to do rations?Definitely.When you get told your finally reaching where you wanted to be and have it hauled out from under you, for lack of a better word sucks.

But here is where the problems lie,most of us "suck it up and soldier on" and do the best possible job.So we are looked at as the guy who is doing the best job and usually kept in the position.

Also the fact that now with the AVAMS course and the crewcommanders course as a plq qualified cpl I am really qualified nothing trade related.Right now I'm actually not even qualified to move a vehicle down the road as I somehow magically was as a trooper...with a beret on .So why are we even subjected to the infantry portion of the mod 6 if we still are not qualified anything.Here's an idea throw the ARCC in as our mod 6 after small party tasking.

Does anyone remember when cpls who got their PLQ actually got responsibility,subordinates(i.e being the troop whip),and started his crew commanding?
At least this will do me good in my next trade,for now I will go to QM and sign out stuff for the course and shut my mouth....this is a fine week to bump my daily run up to 24km.Its like Prozac only cheaper.

So with every problem there has to be solutions.

1. mod 6 crewcommanders course instead of defensive ops/infantry portion.

2.if not feasible run a AVAMS course,allows Cpl to be at least qualified to crewcommand on enemy force,or bring veh administratively around training area.Gives him opportunity to pratice while in low stress position before hitting ARCC with little experience.

3.Post into positions where we can use these skills.Not into junior positions.Post to things like enemy force (op-for) or as troop acting mcpl in HQ sqn.

Just wondering your guys thoughts on this.Is it the same in your trade where a PLQ means nothing?Or if anyone else sees any other solutions.

 

[Armymedic]

Oh, poor boy. Got a PLQ and the Comd is not calling for your opinion?  (ok, shot taken..now for the serious advice)

It is not unusual for a PLQ Cpl to not change jobs after their course, in the armour corps or anywhere else.

Listen if you ever reach the rank of Master Corporal, expect to still work as a Cpl, but know that your Sgt, Tp WO and SSM will expect any work you do to be beyond reproach, hence the title...

MASTER Corporal.

And get used to the crap and abuse, as MCpl is the shittiest rank. You have the responsibility and duties of a Sgt (and every job the Sgt doesn't want to do) and would still be expected (esp in my books) to pick up that last broom and help the guys sweep the floor because you must lead by example. Get used to that concept now

Perhaps your problem is that you have yet to show things to your bosses that indicate you are ready for more responsibility?  Or possibly a posting back to the Regt would be in order for you?

 

[Franko]

+1 Ash on that one.

rcacc_011.....well what can I say?

I was in exactly your shoes a few years ago (6) going from the position of en force CC....in a Coyote no less, sans helmet at that. ( a position I did for 4 years)

Got to the Regiment and it was exactly as it is at the school. I experienced the exact same thing to a tee. CLC qual (for over 7 years) but not able to use it due to constraints.

I partially blame the system for creating this debacle...and a merit board that was stagnate at the time as well.

I made peace with it and did the best I could, ending up CCing the Bison Amb for my Sqn and driving/CCing the ARV as well (the mech CC was an idiot and was fired by the SSM in Wainwright....told me to do both jobs.)

Mind you, you can still technically CC a light track or Bison by the books.   

Make the best of it and get ready for 50X the bullshyte with $50 extra a pay....and know that you are going to be constantly watched when you do get that leaf. By both superiors and subordinates.

My $0.02 worth

Regards

 

[orange.paint]

Yeah I'm quite aware of the rank structure and all that good stuff.

Problem being told your posted to instruct to get there and find out your driving rations,kind of a kick in the nuts.

Anyway the main point of my rant is we need to develop the leadership course to develop functional armoured leaders at graduation.IIRC the infantry add 2 weeks to the end of mod 6 and they are qualified why are we not doing the same by adding in a ARCC.That way when your done your leadership course you are qualified MCPL and quickly employable.

Perhaps your problem is that you have yet to show things to your bosses that indicate you are ready for more responsibility?  Or possibly a posting back to the Regt would be in order for you?

Think I have proved that,got on the course in the first place.To some my career is flying.
Posting back to the regiment would be awesome.I will be begging and pleading during this years career mangers brief.

good job on the insults and sarcasm though and the explanation of what a MCPL is was really helpful.I had no idea really.Just to confirm hes the guy with the maple leaf right?

yep recce by death I agree but as I said my main point is the PLQ needing to be revamped for armoured crewman.And here we need avams to cc anything!

 

[Kat Stevens]

I have never heard of such a thing. In the Engineers, right after CLC, Cpls are tasked to take the regiment on 3 week FTXs, all the officers and SNCOs stay home, they are no longer needed.  A Cpl employed in a position he is over qualified for?  What next, officers with firearms? Why the very idea is preposterous..... Armd Corps, you say?  Hmmmm....

 

[McG]

I think the AVAMS course (the generic CC course) is foolish.  It should be part of the PLQ (Land) and it should be a part of CAP.

 

[orange.paint]

I think the AVAMS course (the generic CC course) is foolish.  It should be part of the PLQ (Land) and it should be a part of CAP.

me too.But especially in the corp cpls should be qualified their next rank after course,trade specific mod 6 would solve all these problems.

 

[Journeyman]

.....would solve all these problems.

Clearly not all the problems.

Since you apparently disliked another commentator's sarcasm above, I will avoid it and spell it out for you.

If you are as whiny in the School as you are here, I would also employ you driving rats. You are a Cpl, not a MCpl (although it's been explained that MCpl can be an even crappier rank, especially if you think you are Patton reincarnate). I would not send you back to the Regt because I hate people who pass their problem children along.

Instead of focussing on what you think the Army owes you, concentrate on being a SOLDIER. Troops need to be supported; the rations need to be delivered; that's your task. Haul in your bottom lip and get at it.

This, however, is merely the perspective of someone who has been course officer for several PLQs. But before all that, I was actually a MCpl working for the SQ.....and I delivered rations when required.....as a Master Corporal! Scandalous. (OK, I couldn't avoid the sarcasm  : )

 

[orange.paint]

OK enough is enough this is getting totally misunderstood.

The basic idea I am trying to get across is a PLQ in the armoured corp is kind of a useless course right now.Without a crewcommanders course,gunners course a plq qualified cpl cannot take the place of a MCPL.

All that was simply asked was is the plq land as useless in other trades when it comes to becoming a MCPL. I.E in the arty do they need any other courses after the plq etc.

is the symbol I used to show I was just kidding around.

And finally Journeyman, you seem to have totally taken this out of context.Personally I couldn't really care of your personal thoughts on myself,but maybe before the insults you should read back,take a Prozac and read the main topic of the PLQ land not really meaning anything in the corp.Compared to 5-6 years ago.

Personally I have no problem driving rats sweeping pads etc,but to be posted in and told you are to teach and find out your driving rats is a bit dishearting.I also brought up that point to illustrate the even though I am PLQ qualified it does not really make me qualified for a MCPL position without my ARCC.Thus someone needs to look at revamping the PLQ system for supporting combat arms.

I'm far from whiny,and patton was an officer which is far from my goals.As for being a soldier read the first few lines of the first post.It clearly stated I loved being a SOLDIER and rarely ******* or complained.But I guess your educated mind couldn't see the forest for the trees.

so SIMPLY

THE ARMOURED CORP SHOULD LOOK AT EMPLOYING THEIR OWN MOD 6 SO THAT ARMOURED CREWMAN GRADUATING LEADERSHIP COURSES ARE ACUALLY QUALIFIED.

As for being a "problem child" maybe you should bring out your finishing school gentleman attitude and not insult people to make yourself look "cool".

So anyway back on topic here,is there any plan on changing this system?Will avams be implemented or a full ARCC (cant see it due to lack of veh and time).

ANd when I brought up the point of PLQ qualifed guys driving coyotes,for those who dont know its the most junior position in the corp.Thats an insult due to lack of personel.

 

[Scratch_043]

You'll have to forgive me, because I have no Mil. experience, yet.
Having said that, why are you complaining so much about not being able to do the job of  MCPL 'even though I have PLQ'?
IMO, you're a CPL, you do CPL's jobs, if you're a MCPL, you do MCPL's jobs. You shouldn't expect the world, especially if there are more qualified people there already to fill those jobs. In my understanding, you have the extra courses, qualifications, etc. so that you can do YOUR job better, and, if called upon, can take on extra duties, or jobs that require those skills. It shouldn't be looked at that just because you have a certain qualification, that you should automatically be given the 'extras'.
How is it they say? Privilege not a right?

 

[orange.paint]

stop go back read last post.
got nothing to do with positions and everything to do with the training system not allowing armd crewman to be qualified after their PLQ.

 

[Journeyman]

Well, I am duly chastened.  :

Clearly there is nothing to be read in the fact that every respondant has mocked or criticized the view put forward by rcac_011. Since your mind was made up about how the Army needs to change in order for you to be employed as you feel you deserve, I see little that I can add to this thread.

 

[reccecrewman]

I will agree with you rcac_011 on once having that PLQ, you are still going to be doing the exact same thing you were doing when you had 2 hooks.  You also have to look at it this way - I know several Jacks who lost a tour in the past year and a half because they didn't have their DP2A that allows them to crew command an armoured vehicle.  With the new transformation and courses required to do various jobs throughout the Corps, people holding a rank and qualification find themselves unable to a job that 10 years ago, they would be doing.  ie - A Corporal 10-15 years ago with a CLC was not an odd sight in a crew commanders hatch of a Leopard or Cougar.  Today, there are Master Corporals that were commanding vehicles of their own suddenly told they couldn't crew command and were promptly dispatched to Gagetown to do their DP2A.  It's almost as if you have to hold the qualifications required to be promoted to the NEXT rank to do the job of the rank you actually hold.  

Case in point, the current DP2A course you need as a Master Corporal to crew command also has a Patrol Commanders portion in its 6 month span.  This is causing many growing pains for the guys who already have between 5-12 years in, but it will flow nicely for the guys coming in now.  In short, it sucks for us right now, but it will get better.  The guys here in the Regiment who are Corporals with a PLQ are given tasks that give them a chance to showcase their leadership abilities while still doing their job as a Corporal.  Good luck getting back to the Regiment and hope things work out for you.

Regards

 

[Standards]

Despite the sarcasm, I suspect many of the previous posters (postees?) have gone through similar experiences.  After doing my CLC  I was employed as sect 2IC working for a more experienced Cpl.  However, when posted to Germany - where the Regt was fully manned - I was one of four CLC qualified Cpls in the sect along with a Sgt, MCpl and non-CLC Cpls.  it took another year before I worked my way back to a 2IC position.  Don't expect your employment to be based solely on your qualifications and experience, rather it is based on how you fit into the unit's organization (i.e. if your peers have more time in rank, they will likely get selected formore advanced positions before you do).

As far as the PLQ goes, it is a gateway to provide leadership training to all trades, not to provide trade specific training.  I'm not saying the armoured doesn't need trade specif training at the same point in time (I haven't examined investigated the issue enough to form any conclusions), however saying that you can do without the PLQ Mod 6 seems a bit much.  Where else are you going to learn to lead a sect attack or a dismounted patrol?  While these tasks may not be common in Armd Regts, they are are still required at times.

A point on the PLQ (Inf) as it is actually 15 training days (or three weeks) longer than the PLQ (Land).  The skills and tasks being done are the mostly the same on both courses, the PLQ (Inf) just goes into more detail and expects a higher level of performance.

D

 

[Shamrock]

I have to agree with the above sentiments about PLQ incorporating crew-commanding elements, though those don't have to be armour specific.

Engineers, infantry, armour, and artillery, medics, mechanics all use AFV (though not all have turrets) -- though I cannot speak at what level they will be They all have to be commanded by someone.  In the armoured corps, it is not unusual to expect a more senior corporal to competently CC a vehicle; indeed, it's one of the core skills of a junior leader.  I'm not familiar with how mech inf do things, but are the Z vehs not commanded by the gunner? 

Crew commanding a vehicle ain't easy, but nor is it hard enough that only a few can do it.  It's an army-wide skill exercised by junior leaders on an almost daily basis; to me, it's perfectly logical to include a CC portion to PLQ Land in a widely mechanized army.

 

[orange.paint]

There we go journeyman
At least a few are understanding what I'm getting at.(standards,reccecrewman,c/s Kenny)
The infantry have to have their 2a (?) before they get their PLQ then with the two extra weeks added onto their leadership course they are qualified.

As standards said I will agree that section attack etc are important ,but as the infantry add 15 training days to their course why not add the allotted time for a ARCC to our courses.

. Since your mind was made up about how the Army needs to change in order for you to be employed as you feel you deserve, I see little that I can add to this thread.

It has nothing to do about where I am currently,it has everything to do with what I hear and discuss at my workplace.When units place people on PLQ's they are sending them forward in their careers towards MCPL.In the armoured corp a PLQ basically proves you can handle leadership and no real trade benefit.Infantry get the dual during the one course.So yes the army needs to change,imagine that.Pointless to have a pile of cpls sitting around cf qualified for MCPL but still awaiting course loading to actually be able to do a armoured MCPL job.Plus adding the ARCC would keep guys in "course mode" and just roll right into more training.

Just wondering if this has ever been approached or any plans in the future.I have heard it around work for a while but only in pure talk.

 Good luck getting back to the Regiment and hope things work out for you.

Regards

Yep found out im now SHQ and instructing when I get back off leave.Hopefully see Petawawa and some more tours real soon.

I have to agree with the above sentiments about PLQ incorporating crew-commanding elements, though those don't have to be armour specific.
  It's an army-wide skill exercised by junior leaders on an almost daily basis; to me, it's perfectly logical to include a CC portion to PLQ Land in a widely mechanized army.

Me too.They added urban ops which is a huge advance in the previous courses.Although a generic CC course for all trades would be a definite asset It wouldn't work for armoured as tactics etc would have to be added.Maybe look at AVAMS or something like that for all the other trades while armd went off to the school to do their tactics/gunnery portion.

 

[Dale Turner]

I have NO experience with the armd corps however I do have experience with the PLQ and being a MCPL. I understand the lack of enthusiasm you have for the job you just left after being promised a "better" job. But like you said your a soldier and you've gotta do the job your tasked with. After aceing the job for a while you may have other opportunities presented to you. Be patient.

The course though can't be taylored to specific trades. I, a medic, went through mod 6. When was the last time you saw a medic lead a section attack or a fighting/recce patrol? (mind you I loved every second of it! :warstory

If PLQ were trade specific there would be a lot fewer courses  because there would'nt be enough deserving people to be offered the course in each trade. There would also be longer wait times for the course and that would lead to disgrunteled and disheartened soldiers who would eventually leave the forces before they were offered the PLQ.

Bide your time.

Oh! by the way kudos on getting TC on your course....but it really did'nt need to be part of your thread...did it?.

 

[orange.paint]

Added to show im not one of those bitter guys who done poorly and want the infantry part scrapped....you know the type im talking about!

 

[dangerboy]

I have to agree with the above sentiments about PLQ incorporating crew-commanding elements, though those don't have to be armour specific.

Engineers, infantry, armour, and artillery, medics, mechanics all use AFV (though not all have turrets) -- though I cannot speak at what level they will be They all have to be commanded by someone.  In the armoured corps, it is not unusual to expect a more senior corporal to competently CC a vehicle; indeed, it's one of the core skills of a junior leader.  I'm not familiar with how mech inf do things, but are the Z vehs not commanded by the gunner? 

In the infantry the zulu LAV's are CC by a CC who is CC qual and for live fire's and operational tours min PLQ qualified.

 

[Shamrock]

OIC.

Been a long time since I worked with infantry Z vehicles; last time I did it they were in Grizzlies.  However, dangerboy's post illustrates the need for standardization -- if part of their requirement to command a LAV is a PLQ, it only makes sens to incorporate it into the training.  How to navigate cross country, actions on, safe operation of a veh, etc.