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Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread

No. PERIOD. Under the criminal code of  Canada you can be charged for this. If you want that code
changed do what you have to to get it changed. Those medal's were earned through blood, sweat
and many many tear's. No disrespect to the people/person's,,family who would. What would people
think if I wore the 13 medal's my grandfather  earned during the Boer war,1st world war,,,2nd world
war If Iwore them... They would get the impression I earned them which would be disrespectful.
Shadowbox come's to mind. Last Nov 11 I seen a lil lad wearing a miniature 3 belonging to his grand-
father... Looked cute and nice BUT. So you can rag on me all you want but No. Would you like someone
else wearing your medal's giving the impresision that they were the recipient of said medal's.
Just my thought's. Rant Off. Cheer's and best regard's... Scoty B... See you on parade.
 
Do I support the current approach? Yes - because I believe in the rule of law. Do I think that it could/should be changed? Yes - there's enough specific stipulations that could be applied to keep things honest ie: mounted with a black ribbon etc. There will always be enough vigilant vets to keep the Walts at bay.

We have to bear in mind that the reason for the law no longer exists, and that change to meet new circumstances should be considered. Until these changes are made, I will continue to accept the current approach while recognizing that it is flawed.
 
Journeyman said:
Could you expand on this?

The law as it stands was introduced to counter the large numbers of fraudulent benefit applications following WW1. Given the level of record keeping today versus then, this law can withstand modification without dilution.
 
I wanted to say  I dislike t shirts with logos, I dislike sport t shirt, uniform shirts with team logos etc.  If you want me to wear a logo pay  me to wear it.

I do not see how this is the same as wearing some one else medals out of respect or a private way of remembering a familiy  member. I have my  grand father's medals WW II vet, North Africa Star 2nd Clasp, Burma Star, I forget his other star  CD with Clasp,  and served till he retired in 1969 with various UN operation medals,  I have my  great grandfather's medals from WW I and WW II,  and his only  sons medals ( so great  uncle) who died in a training flgiht in a bomber over Scotland ( buried near RAF Kincloss). Out of respect for them I would never consider putting on their medals and parading around any  day  let alone 11th November. Their medals are in the boxes they were awarded in and stored. Some day  I want to do a shadow box to honour my  mom's family and their military life. I want to get a hold of the other other great  grandfather 's medal and put his Military  Medal on display .
Honour your loved one memories by  displaying the medals in a place of honour not on your person. They  deserve that, not to be used to draw attention to yourself.

 
ModlrMike said:
The law as it stands was introduced to counter the large numbers of fraudulent benefit applications following WW1. Given the level of record keeping today versus then, this law can withstand modification without dilution.
How would that work?  Do they show up and say "yep, this is my medal"?
 
FlyingDutchman said:
How would that work?  Do they show up and say "yep, this is my medal"?

In an era where checking someone's background was neither simple nor quick, and a man was taken at his word, it was easy for the dishonorable to misrepresent themselves as returned soldiers. They might choose to do this if an employer was offering new jobs to returned soldiers or to get undeserved veterans' benefits. Even the naming on medals could be explained as having served under a false name or lost medals having been replaced by a pair acquired from a pawnbroker, etc. The law also extended to the lapel pin War Service Badges.

Here is the reverse of a Class A War Service Badge.

 
Context is a wonderful thing. The first few posts, and articles leave the impression that the Government is being mean spirited. Once you understand the rationale, the situation becomes more clear. I still maintain however that the law needs modernization. I don't support scrapping it altogether. That would just encourage the Walts as there would be no legal method of dealing with the chronics. Perhaps some contact with my MP is in order.
 
ModlrMike said:
Context is a wonderful thing. The first few posts, and articles leave the impression that the Government is being mean spirited. Once you understand the rationale, the situation becomes more clear. I still maintain however that the law needs modernization. I don't support scrapping it altogether. That would just encourage the Walts as there would be no legal method of dealing with the chronics. Perhaps some contact with my MP is in order.

Agree.

For many, this issue seems to fit into a (perhaps very Canadian) mindset of "if it is not specifically permitted, then it is prohibited".  There has been reference to this practice being common (and allowed) in other Commonwealth countries (specifically United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand), with the assumption that their legislation permits it.  That would not be entirely correct.  Only one of those countries (Australia) permits the practice of wearing an ancestor's medal by the "letter of the law".  The UK and NZ is like Canada in that their laws specifically limit the wear of medals to only those who were awarded them, but they "accept" the custom of wearing an ancestor's medals on the right breast on special days of remembrance.

I went into more detail in a previous post on this thread about three years ago.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25589/post-790796.html#msg790796
 
Veterans groups differ on law banning wearing of war medals

With Remembrance Day on the horizon, Canadians are looking to express appreciation for the country’s veterans, perhaps hoping to don war medals earned by their deceased relatives.

But last week, many Canadians learned that a little-known law actually forbids that gesture of respect and commemoration.

Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits “the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.”

Jeff Rose-Martland, executive director of the Canadian veterans group Our Duty, says his constituency generally opposes the idea of people wearing the medal of a living veteran.

“But when it comes to deceased veterans, it’s been pretty universal, amongst the veterans I’ve spoken with, that yes, a family member should be able to wear them to show remembrance and respect,” he says.

The law came to light after Our Duty announced a campaign called Veterans Among Us, which sought to raise awareness of Canada’s 800,000 veterans.

While fielding questions about war medals, Our Duty learned of the 91-year-old statute prohibiting someone else from wearing of medals received by living or dead veterans. The organization promptly issued a release advising its constituents not to wear the medals of family members, as the act would be a criminal offence.

Introduced in 1920, the statute was largely intended to deter people from impersonating returning war veterans, who were entitled to benefits and incentives (like jobs) in the years after service. The statute does not set out a specific penalty, but for summary conviction offences, the penalty is a maximum of six months imprisonment or a $5,000 fine or both.

More at link
 
If the member was deceased and the medals were worn on the right side, I'm not sure where I see the harm with this. As the article states below, the UK and Australia practice this (while maintaining the wearing of unearned decorations on the left side as a criminal offence).

The way I see it, my medals weren't earned by me alone. There are a whole group of people (some of whom will never wear a uniform) that are an integral part of my military career, friends and family both. Once I'm dead and gone, will my ghost be offended by a relative wearing my gongs to honour my memory? Nope, though there are a few of the more distant/crazier ones I wouldn't want to see have them, I admit.

I think the Brits and Aussies have struck a good balance, and I don't see why we can't do the same thing.


From: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/31/f-war-medals.html?cmp=rss

With Remembrance Day on the horizon, Canadians are looking to express appreciation for the country’s veterans, perhaps hoping to don war medals earned by their deceased relatives.

But last week, many Canadians learned that a little-known law actually forbids that gesture of respect and commemoration.

Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits “the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.”

Jeff Rose-Martland, executive director of the Canadian veterans group Our Duty, says his constituency generally opposes the idea of people wearing the medal of a living veteran.

“But when it comes to deceased veterans, it’s been pretty universal, amongst the veterans I’ve spoken with, that yes, a family member should be able to wear them to show remembrance and respect,” he says.

The law came to light after Our Duty announced a campaign called Veterans Among Us, which sought to raise awareness of Canada’s 800,000 veterans.

While fielding questions about war medals, Our Duty learned of the 91-year-old statute prohibiting someone else from wearing of medals received by living or dead veterans. The organization promptly issued a release advising its constituents not to wear the medals of family members, as the act would be a criminal offence.

Introduced in 1920, the statute was largely intended to deter people from impersonating returning war veterans, who were entitled to benefits and incentives (like jobs) in the years after service. The statute does not set out a specific penalty, but for summary conviction offences, the penalty is a maximum of six months imprisonment or a $5,000 fine or both.

Commonwealth nations like Great Britain and Australia have similar restrictions on wearing the medals of a living veteran — the consequences are fines or up to six months in jail. But both countries relax the law if the veteran is deceased, with the proviso that relatives wear the medals on the right side of the body; this distinguishes them from the original soldier, who would have worn medals on the left.

“That shows that they’re not your medals,” says Rose-Martland. “You’re wearing them on behalf of somebody else.”

Our Duty would like to have the Canadian law amended. Over the last few decades, there have been backbench motions to change the statute, but they were quickly voted down.

Rose-Martland says there is resistance from groups like the Royal Canadian Legion, Canada’s largest veterans group, which has more than 500,000 members.

The legion denies this.

“I don’t know where somebody got the idea that we’re against [people wearing their relatives’ war medals] – all we’re doing is obeying the law,” says Bob Butt, director of communications for the Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion.

“Until we get a resolution through the [legion’s internal] resolution process that passes dominion convention, the legion is not mandated to do anything about the law. Until we’re mandated, we don’t take any action.”

The number of people who are actually prosecuted for this offence is exceedingly low.

According to Justice Canada, there were no charges for 2009-10, the last year for which it has statistical data. In 2008-09, there were four charges, all of which were eventually stayed or withdrawn; in 2007-08, there were eight charges, two of which led to convictions and six either stayed or withdrawn.

“Although it is unlikely a widow would be charged with an offence for wearing her late husband’s medals, it is up to provincial Crowns to make decisions about charges,” Carole Saindon, a media relations officer at the Canadian Department of Justice, said in an email. “Such determinations require consideration of whether this would be in the public interest.”

Rose-Martland says he doesn’t personally know of anyone who has been punished for this offence, but he has heard from families that have been reprimanded by other veterans.

“I have spoken to civilians who have worn the medals at remembrance ceremonies and so on, and they’ve gotten grief from people present who were legion members, and were told basically to take [the medals] off or complaints would be filed with the nearest police force,” he says.

Ultimately, Rose-Martland is concerned that this old law stands in the way of giving veterans their proper due.

“We’re coming up on a hundred years past the end of World War I. We don’t have any Great War veterans left, the World War II veterans are passing, and within a few years we’re going to have a large amount of medals that were awarded to Canadians, including the Victoria Cross, that no one can display,” he says.

“When the family members can’t display them, they sit in people’s houses, and nobody gets to see them and gets to learn that aspect of our history.”
 
There's already a couple of threads going on this one, so I'll be merging them all over at "Military History" shortly.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
milnews.ca said:
There's already a couple of threads going on this one, so I'll be merging them all over at "Military History" shortly.

Milnet.ca Staff

Thanks for merging my post in with the others. I didn't see that Moe posted the same article at about the same time I did.

I'll check more closely before I post next time.

Cheers!
 
0tto Destruct said:
Thanks for merging my post in with the others. I didn't see that Moe posted the same article at about the same time I did.

I'll check more closely before I post next time.

Cheers!
No worries - there was more than one thread brought together here.
 
Shadow Box come's to mind. Cheer's Scoty B
Until the law is changed I would have no prob's
with someome wear said relative's Medal's on
the right... Appropraitly displayed.  :salute:
 
Am I allowed to revive this one...?

A recent post has been made on a Blog associated to a Major newspaper in Ottawa and one of the Military Alumni groups I am a member of on Facebook seems to be stirring over the issue...

Not sure if I'm allowed to link in or quote from that source here or not....but there seems to be some rather vitrolic comments and thoughts on this matter. 

I'm of the "NAY" side myself. 

 
NavyShooter said:
Am I allowed to revive this one...?

A recent post has been made on a Blog associated to a Major newspaper in Ottawa and one of the Military Alumni groups I am a member of on Facebook seems to be stirring over the issue...

Not sure if I'm allowed to link in or quote from that source here or not....but there seems to be some rather vitrolic comments and thoughts on this matter. 

I'm of the "NAY" side myself.


There is a similar debate going on, more or less under the radar, re: the Memorial Cross.

The War Amps are fighting the government over the (inadequate) Last Post Fund - all well and good, that. But part of their "open letter" to Prime Minister Harper goes a step further and says, "it is extremely difficult to advise widows of deceased war amputees that not only has their claim for benefits under the Last Post Fund regulations been turned down, but also that they will not be receiving the Memorial Cross ... there are a number of widows within The War Amputations of Canada who find it impossible to understand how it is that certain widows of the Association have received the Memorial Cross when others have not been so recognized."

The answer to the War Amps "difficulty" can be found in the very definition of the memorial Cross: "The Memorial Cross is an award that has been granted since 1919 to the loved ones of Canadian armed forces personnel who died in service or whose death was attributed to their service." In other words if veteran A, who was wounded, dies, years later, because of those wounds then his widow gets a Memorial Cross, but if veteran B, who was even more grievously wounded, dies in, say, a car accident or of other causes not related to his or her wound then there is no Memorial Cross for the widow. It is a fair, just system.
 
I am the daughter of a World War 2 veteran who has been campaigning for six years to help families of deceased veterans and veterans who have made it quite clear how they want to be remembered after they die. The veterans I have spoke to over the last six years want their families to be able to display(for once a year on Remembrance Day) the war medals on the right side of the chest, with a photo and name of the soldier who earned the medals.

The families in Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand are permitted to display the medals on the right chest, why not Canada. My dad landed on Juno Beach on D-Day and he risked his life for our freedom along with all his other comrads, thousands of those soldiers didn't make it back. My father survived this ordeal but not without injuries. My father never wanted to have his medals hanging on a wall or sitting on a shelf collecting dust. My father wanted his medals to have a significant purpose after he passed away and I am trying to make that purpose a reality. I have many letters from veterans, families of deceased veterans and others who support this cause. Even the Royal Canadian Legion Defence and Security committee wrote up recommendations to suggest the families should be allowed to display the medals on the right chest during Remembrance Day Ceremonies to be able to honor the soldiers last wishes that want this tradition on Remembrance Day.

As it stands section 419 of the criminal code states that only those who earned the medals can wear the medals. However, there is a clause in section 419 that states without lawful excuse. A criminal lawyer has informed me that he believes that as a daughter of a veteran who inherited my fathers medals that I do have lawful excuse to DISPLAY THOSE MEDALS IN THE MANNER MY FATHER WOULD WANT ME TO ON REMEMBRANCE DAY ON MY RIGHT CHEST WITH my fathers name AND HIS PHOTO. There is not confusion as to who earned the medals and who is displaying them with pride on the right chest so the soldier is never forgotten.

The families are not trying to impersonate a veteran in this manner, but honor our veterans so they are never forgotten. Please take the word WEAR out of this issue. We do not want to wear the medal, we want to DISPLAY THEM ON OUR RIGHT CHEST, WITH A PHOTO AND NAME OF OUR SOLDIER ON REMEMBRANCE DAY.

To understand my mission more clearly please google the following newspaper articles, one written by the late Peter Worthington a World War 2 veteran and a Korean veteran. Peters father was the founder of armored corps.

Please google "Military Medals Span Generations" by Peter Worthington

Please google, "Wearing a relatives's military medals should be allowed" by David Haas

David is also a veteran and a retired criminal lawyer who believes in my cause and the necessity to treasure those medals before they disappear from site along with the memories that go with these medals regarding the soldier who earned them.

There are war medals all over the internet sites for sale, they are in pawn shops and even thrown in the garbage like yesterdays news. I want the families to be able to have a tradition like they do in Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand, so that the families will treasure the medals and them back to the Remembrance Day Ceremonies from generation to generation so our soldiers will never be forgotten.

What better way to remember our soldier then to display his/her medal on our right chest with a photo and name of the soldier who earned the medal. Look into the eyes of the soldiers who gave you your freedom and I will tell you about each and every medal they earned and what those medals stand for. Those veterans who wish to keep their medals on the wall or on a shelf already have their last wishes before they die. However, the veterans who want their families to display the medals on the right chest at Remembrance Day Ceremonies are waiting for section 419 to be clarified regarding "lawful excuse" so they have their last wishes granted before they die as well.

I would like to hear what you think after you read the newspaper articles I have asked you to please google in order to understand what my mission is all about. I have been on radio shows, CBC National News and plenty of newspapers each and every Remembrance to try to help the veterans and families who agree with this tradition. I will not give up my mission until mission accomplished.

                        Proud Daughter of a World War 2 Veteran
 
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