Warrant Officers in the US and Canadian Armies - confusion re: status?

[geo]

Otto...
the Russians & the Soviets before them did it that way as well
NCO Academies for people right off the street.....

Canada, what a country! 

 

[ibilola]

WOs and MWOs do not get their scroll

Soldiers should be given a 'Warrant' on promotion to the rank of WO for the 'Warrant' designation to have any meaning. Otherwise how can WOs and MWOs be defined as  'Warrant Officers'?

 

[geo]

... guess they have to wait to get an office issued to them 1st

Not arguing with you on that matter ibilola. Was going thru some of my Gramp's papers and thru WW1, Officers would get new commission scrolls as they got promoted.

Someone is being chintzy with the paper I guess.

 

[ibilola]

... guess they have to wait to get an office issued to them 1st

Not arguing with you on that matter ibilola. Was going thru some of my Gramp's papers and thru WW1, Officers would get new commission scrolls as they got promoted.

Someone is being chintzy with the paper I guess.

Wouldn't cost much to issue a laser printer generated 'Warrant' with an electronic signature on it. Then all WOs/PO1s would have something to hang on the wall. And CWOs could still be given their scrolls. 

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm surprised to hear a WO5 is equivalent to a LtCol. I thought all US WOs were junior to a second lieutenant.  And if the US WO1 (the most junior grade)  is only appointed by Warrant, why do enlisted personnel have to salute him or her?  I thought the commission was saluted, not the person.

Tomahawk is right, of course.  Think of US Army Warrant Officers as a "specialist officer" employed in a special, advisory/command and/or specific position within a unit's structure.  The numbers do equate closely between WO and OF positions, i.e.  CW3 is roughly equivalent in a specialist sense to an experienced battle captain (OF3).  In US Army aviation, officers usually only fill the direct line comand positions Lt/CPT - Tps and Pls, Maj - Coys and the LTC is the batallion comd, but you will see, for example CW3's as SPs (standardization plts) or IPs (instructor pilots), or CW4 as unit standards pilots or the Bn flight safety officer.  I think of the CW4 as an "operator senior NCM to the CO" CW5's are quite rare and limited in total numbers that may hold that rank as any given time.  I have also seen non-commissioned WO2'sas well as (but not often) CW2s, so overall, I've flown with WO1, WO2, CW2, CW3, CW4 and worked with CW5 in staff positions.  Not sure if that helps...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[ibilola]

I have also seen non-commissioned WO2's as well....

Equivalent to a Master Warrant Officer?

 

[ghazise]

1.   When comparing ranks in general between any military, a great start is to find out at what rank fills what billet?
2.   The responsibilies that billet has?

Comparing Ranks only in Name only is futile,

example: A Chief Warrant Officer who fills a billet of Regimental Sergeant Major of a Battalion, would be equivalent to a Sergeant Major who fills a billet of Battalion Sergeant Major: A Battalion Sergeant Major is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Bn Colonel, and is responsible for the discipline and morale of all enlisted Marines 

From my point of view a CDN WO, CWO, is more comparable to a Gunnery Sergeant, 1st Sergeant/Master Sergeant, Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant rather than a Warrant Officer, Chief Warrant Officer in the Marine Corps.      

 

[George Wallace]

example: A Chief Warrant Officer who fills a billet of Regimental Sergeant Major of a Battalion, would be equivalent to a Sergeant Major who fills a billet of Battalion Sergeant Major: A Battalion Sergeant Major is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Bn Colonel, and is responsible for the discipline and morale of all enlisted Marines  

From my point of view a CDN WO, CWO, is more comparable to a Gunnery Sergeant, 1st Sergeant/Master Sergeant, Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant rather than a Warrant Officer, Chief Warrant Officer in the Marine Corps.  

Could you have added any more to the confusion?

 

[ibilola]

1.   When comparing ranks in general between any military, a great start is to find out at what rank fills what billet?
2.   The responsibilies that billet has?

Comparing Ranks only in Name only is futile,

example: A Chief Warrant Officer who fills a billet of Regimental Sergeant Major of a Battalion, would be equivalent to a Sergeant Major who fills a billet of Battalion Sergeant Major: A Battalion Sergeant Major is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Bn Colonel, and is responsible for the discipline and morale of all enlisted Marines  

From my point of view a CDN WO, CWO, is more comparable to a Gunnery Sergeant, 1st Sergeant/Master Sergeant, Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant rather than a Warrant Officer, Chief Warrant Officer in the Marine Corps.      

But what about a Section/Squad Commander - in the US Army a Staff Sergeant (E6), in the British Army, a Corporal (E4):

Or a Physician Assistant - in the US Army, a Commissioned Officer, in the Canadian Army, an E7 or E8 equivalent?

 

[AmmoTech90]

Equivalent to a Master Warrant Officer?

ibilola, stop thinking that just because the rank is written the same the positions and responsibilities are the same across countries.

A British WO2 would be equivalent to a MWO, and American is not.  An American WO2 is closed to a 2Lt.

American Warrant Officers are not the same as a Commonwealth Warrant Officers, they are not the same as Commonwealth Officers.  The fall somewhere in between, actually closer to Commonwealth Officers.  They may be direct entries (some pilots) or very experienced NCOs who have gone the Warrant Officer route.  Either way they fulfil a specialist technical position that may be simply flying, or it may be advising a battalion commander on training and weapons.

For the American system, the Warrant Officer is heavy on the officer, the Commonwealth, heavy on the Warrant.

 

[ibilola]

ibilola, stop thinking that just because the rank is written the same the positions and responsibilities are the same across countries.

A British WO2 would be equivalent to a MWO, and American is not.   An American WO2 is closed to a 2Lt.

American Warrant Officers are not the same as a Commonwealth Warrant Officers, they are not the same as Commonwealth Officers.   The fall somewhere in between, actually closer to Commonwealth Officers.   They may be direct entries (some pilots) or very experienced NCOs who have gone the Warrant Officer route.   Either way they fulfil a specialist technical position that may be simply flying, or it may be advising a battalion commander on training and weapons.

For the American system, the Warrant Officer is heavy on the officer, the Commonwealth, heavy on the Warrant.

AmmoTech90

I understand the difference but you mentioned commissioned CW2s and non-commissioned WO2s in your previous post.  I assumed you were referring to different ranks/ armies.

 

[AmmoTech90]

AmmoTech90

I understand the difference but you mentioned commissioned CW2s and non-commissioned WO2s in your previous post.  I assumed you were referring to different ranks/ armies.

That was actually Duey's post.

One correction.  US WO1 are not commissioned, they are warrented, but they still get saluted.  From what I can tell, there no longer any US WO2s, at least the service websites for Army, Navy, USMC don't list it as a rank anymore.

Here is a nice little summary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer#United_States

 

[ghazise]

I don't think I added to the confusion at all, I'm not confused, and I can only comment on the equivalent in the Marine Corps;  

"But what about a Section/Squad Commander - in the US Army a Staff Sergeant (E6), in the British Army, a Corporal (E4):"  
A squad being a sub-unit of a platoon, is a sergeant's billet being filled by a Corporal or Sergeant,

Or a Physician Assistant - in the US Army, a Commissioned Officer, in the Canadian Army, an E7 or E8 equivalent?
For the FMF, a Navy Physician is assigned to a Battalion, and his Corpsman Chief is a Chief Petty Officer,  

 

[ibilola]

That was actually Duey's post.

Apologies in order

 

[ibilola]

From what I can tell, there no longer any US WO2s, at least the service websites for Army, Navy, USMC don't list it as a rank anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think WO2 and CW2 in the US Armed Forces are different designations for the same rank.

 

[Good2Golf]

I like 2FtOnion's suggestion to compare billet responsibilities/accountabilities/duties!  That's the best approach...that a similar or exact name is used by many is merely coincidental.  US Army warrant officer aviators are similar in relation to command as are RAF "specialist aircrew", FltLt's or SqnLdr's, whose raison d'etre is to fly and conduct operations using a wealth of experience.  Spec aircrew are considered more valuable for the skills they hold in operations than in streaming up the leadership/command stream...in fact, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think RAF spec aircrew are promotable beyond SqnLdr (O4).

p.s.  I meant to say in my earlier post that I have seen WO2s in the past, but that CW2 is the more common rank one will see.  There is also a level of qualification on a particular aircraft that seems to correlate to warrant officer rank, i.e. WO1 is most often seen in training (as in hundreds of WO1's beetling around Fort Rucker, Alabama.  Once an aviator completes his/her AQC (aircraft qualification course) they are promotable to CW2 and barring any other factor, usually are promoted at the end of their course.

Cheers,
G2G

 

[Acorn]

The US Army doesn't have a WO2 rank. They have WO1, and then CW2, CW3 etc to CW5. The CWs are commissioned as has been mentioned before.

Comparing billets works to a point, but it gets more confusing when you go outside the aviation role of US WOs.

Acorn

 

[ibilola]

The US Army doesn't have a WO2 rank. They have WO1, and then CW2, CW3 etc to CW5. The CWs are commissioned as has been mentioned before.

Comparing billets works to a point, but it gets more confusing when you go outside the aviation role of US WOs.

Acorn

I agree this can be confusing.  In relation to British helicopter pilots, an RAF Flight Lieutenant may have exactly the same role as a Sergeant or (enlisted) WO in the British Army Air Corps. And some of the technical roles (e.g. Signals) carried out by a US WO would be held by enlisted personnel in the British Army.

 

[Recce41]

I believe this may have been posted. But I add it any way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_Armies_Enlisted

 

[BruceinAlberta]

Not really.  I am former US Army (See my post Introduction to the Forum for my military bio)  I found that UK/Canada/ Aussie forces understood the US use of warrant officer pretty well.