Warrant Officers in the US and Canadian Armies - confusion re: status?
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Haggis
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I have found that occasionally it does, particularly when working with Army Aviation units since many US Army pilots are Warrant Officers. Unless I have lots of time, it's usually easier to refer to myself as a First Sergeant or "E8" than it is to try and explain what I am.
That being said, most US Army and USMC NCO's I have worked with have at least a fair grasp of our NCO ranks from increasingly repeated exposure to us.
Confusion about our ranks doesn't start at our southern border. A few years ago, when we wore our rank only on the slip ons, I was saluted by two Canadian Air Force captains on the old CFB Uplands. When I questioned them about this they claimed that since I wore a Highlanders balmoral and crowns on my shoulders that I must have been a British Army Major. Not being certain, they erred on the side of caution and threw me a high five.
That being said, most US Army and USMC NCO's I have worked with have at least a fair grasp of our NCO ranks from increasingly repeated exposure to us.
Confusion about our ranks doesn't start at our southern border. A few years ago, when we wore our rank only on the slip ons, I was saluted by two Canadian Air Force captains on the old CFB Uplands. When I questioned them about this they claimed that since I wore a Highlanders balmoral and crowns on my shoulders that I must have been a British Army Major. Not being certain, they erred on the side of caution and threw me a high five.
Michael Dorosh
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Armymedic said:
And how easily rectified is it in reverse?
Their WOs seem to be a unique breed that have been discussed here before in the distant past. They get to wear them purty bars making them look just like the lieutenants.Confusion reigned supreme in the early 70s, when militia units still wore battledress, and there was a shortage of the 'New' slip-ons and sew-on sleeve ranks for all of the combat uniforms. A Major had a small crown sewn on his shoulder slip-ons for the combat clothing. A Warrant had a small crown - identical - sewn on the upper sleeves of HIS combat uniforms. No problem, right? Sleeves versus shoulders. No problems, until we put on Parka, Extreme Cold Weather, 1951 (Hey, they were only 20 years old back then!). Then, the Majors and Warrants wore identical slip-ons. Hence, the stripes of white bandage tape applied vertical or horizontal to a pocket of the parka to signify Section Commander, Platoon 2i/c, Platoon Commander, etc. Eventually, larger crowns were ordered for the Warrants, and these are the ones we wear today.
Tom
Tom
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US warrant officer's really equate to officer ranks. They rate above NCO's and below the officers. They are technicians. A
W-5 is the equivalent of a Lt Col. Originally they had warrants and could not command. Now W-2's on up are commissioned warrant officers. They have the rights and privilages of officers. They rate a salute and are members of the O club.
W-5 is the equivalent of a Lt Col. Originally they had warrants and could not command. Now W-2's on up are commissioned warrant officers. They have the rights and privilages of officers. They rate a salute and are members of the O club.
That makes a lot of sense to me. Sergeants used to fly four engined bombers in the RCAF and RAF. They only started to officerize flight crew because the Germans treated the officer POWs better than the NCO POWs. And since, it could be argued that LUCKY aircrew eventually became POWs...
Tom
Tom
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Hmm, funny, considering the number of Luftwaffe aces who were sergents.....
http://www.ww2.dk/misc/lwace2.txt
http://www.ww2.dk/misc/lwace2.txt
Michael Dorosh
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Britney Spears said:
Look how far down you have to scroll until you find one, though. ;D
Fahnenjunker/Oberfeldwebel Heinz MARQUANDT
a paltry 121 kills...
I guess once you score 121 aerial victories, they just go ahead and promote you even if you ARE a sergeant...
Look what they did to poor Flt Sgt "Screwball" Beurling. The Malta Spitfire ace. Ottawa wanted their hero's to wear bars. Screwball didn't want to be an officer. He just wanted to fly and kill. So, they got him to sign the request when he was wounded and doped up. Then he needed a new nickname, so he became "Buzz" Beurling.
Died in a Norseman crash in Rome - I think - on his way to fly for a new country (fighting for it's life) called Israel.
Tom
Corrections: He was Buzz before he was Screwball, he didn't crash in Rome, and I can't find anything to back up my impression that he was promoted while doped up. I have Brian Nolan's book on him somewhere, but I recommend the following link:
http://www.constable.ca/beurling.htm
Died in a Norseman crash in Rome - I think - on his way to fly for a new country (fighting for it's life) called Israel.
Tom
Corrections: He was Buzz before he was Screwball, he didn't crash in Rome, and I can't find anything to back up my impression that he was promoted while doped up. I have Brian Nolan's book on him somewhere, but I recommend the following link:
http://www.constable.ca/beurling.htm
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Well, The chart only shows what rank they ended their careers at. I believe a fair number of the top scores were comissioned from the ranks after the first few hundred kills. \
EDIT: Meh, posted before your edit........
Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe today still uses NCO pilots?
I bet they would have given him a BF-109 to fly too.
Getting waay off topic.
EDIT: Meh, posted before your edit........
Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe today still uses NCO pilots?
I bet they would have given him a BF-109 to fly too.
Getting waay off topic.
Flight Lieutenant George "Buzz" Beurling
Born: December 6, 1921
Died: May 18, 1948
Place of Birth: Verdun, Quebec
Major Notes:
Canada's most famous World War II pilot.
His record includes shooting down 27 enemy planes in 14 days.
He served in both the RAF and the RCAF and later was recruited by Israel.
Beurling was nicknamed the "Falcon of Malta" and the "Knight of Malta".
As a youth, he worked at nearby Cartierville hangars and made his first solo flight at age 16.
He later developed a computer-like mind for mathematics and detail.
Perhaps unusual for a pilot, Beurling never swore and seldom took liquor.
He had extremely good eyesight aiding his skills as a top marksman in the air.
His first award was the Distinguished Flying Medal for action on July 6, 1942.
His awards also included the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Distinguished Service Order.
Beurling, along with a co-pilot, died when coming in for a landing at the Urbe airfield, Italy. A mysterious fire broke out in the plane which exploded as it touched down.
His death is still surrounded in mystery because of Israeli-British politics at the time.
He is buried in Israel and is considered a hero in that country as well as in Italy and Canada.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born: December 6, 1921
Died: May 18, 1948
Place of Birth: Verdun, Quebec
Major Notes:
Canada's most famous World War II pilot.
His record includes shooting down 27 enemy planes in 14 days.
He served in both the RAF and the RCAF and later was recruited by Israel.
Beurling was nicknamed the "Falcon of Malta" and the "Knight of Malta".
As a youth, he worked at nearby Cartierville hangars and made his first solo flight at age 16.
He later developed a computer-like mind for mathematics and detail.
Perhaps unusual for a pilot, Beurling never swore and seldom took liquor.
He had extremely good eyesight aiding his skills as a top marksman in the air.
His first award was the Distinguished Flying Medal for action on July 6, 1942.
His awards also included the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Distinguished Service Order.
Beurling, along with a co-pilot, died when coming in for a landing at the Urbe airfield, Italy. A mysterious fire broke out in the plane which exploded as it touched down.
His death is still surrounded in mystery because of Israeli-British politics at the time.
He is buried in Israel and is considered a hero in that country as well as in Italy and Canada.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bundeswehr - I think their Army uses (or used) NCOs to fly their BO-105 Recce Helicopters. I was in one for a Recce out of Lahr over the Canadian Canter Area when we were training for Boeselager once. I will have to dig up some old photos, or perhaps again tonight, another kind soul will come and correct my memory.
http://www.constable.ca/beurling.htm
The above Buzz Beurling link is fantastic. The Italians also used Sgt Pilots, apparently. I made some erors in my initial post on Buzz Beurling, and will now correct them.
Tom
http://www.constable.ca/beurling.htm
The above Buzz Beurling link is fantastic. The Italians also used Sgt Pilots, apparently. I made some erors in my initial post on Buzz Beurling, and will now correct them.
Tom
I'm surprised to hear a WO5 is equivalent to a LtCol. I thought all US WOs were junior to a second lieutenant. And if the US WO1 (the most junior grade) is only appointed by Warrant, why do enlisted personnel have to salute him or her? I thought the commission was saluted, not the person.
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I find it's easier to use the Canadian Army WO appointment titles (RSM, CSM, BSM, CQMS, Pl 2IC, etc) and leave the WO rank out of it when talking to US folks. It avoids confusion. The US WO is very similar to the Russian system: a creature between officer and NCO, usually promoted from the ranks for technical ability. Ours, in the Army anyway, is really employed as a higher form of NCO equivalent to the top three or four US E-grades. If we want them to do officer things on a permanent basis, we use CFR or Limited Duty Commissioning to promote them.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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Folks
I dug up some stuff regarding the use of WO in the Canada/British Army.
We had Pte-WO1 rank (7 ranks), The navy OS-CPO (5Ranks),The Airforce AFC-WO1(7Ranks). In WW2 Sec Ic was a Cpl, Plt 2ic was a Sgt, and a Staff was the CQMS,Ops Sgt, WO2s were the RQMS, and nay snr sgt rank. WO 2 was the CSM, RSM WO1. The navy, Sec Ic was a AS, the dept hard was a PO, and the coxan etc was a CPO. The Airforce was the same as the Army for ground crew. For Flight crew a Cpl was a gunner, navigator, bombier, or pilot in training. As (Trained) he was promoted to Sgt. He could then be promoted to a Staff after a time. If he wished or was forced to, he was promoted to Flight LT.
Once we unified we had to have a standard rank, for all. So they came up with this.
Army Navy
New Old New Old
Pte B Pte OS OS
PteT " LS LS
Cpl LCpl AS AS
MCpl Cpl MS "
Sgt Sgt PO PO
WO SSgt PO2 CPO
MWO WO2 PO1 "
CWO WO1 CPO "
The Air force was and is the same as the Army.
A lil history of the WO Rank. It is stated that the WO rank is a Government General Commissioned Officer, not Queen/King Commissioned. This is from the old British Army, that states :
A Warrant will be issued to a Soldier promoted from the Sgt rank. He holds this Warrant superior to NCOs but subordinate to Officers. Even though he is an Officer, he will not be saluted.
But today in the Canadian Army only CWOs get a scroll. The first Warrants were in soldiers in Stores and Tpt. First issued in 1879. They are NOT Snr NCOs but WOs.
I hope this helps out.
:evil: :tank:
I dug up some stuff regarding the use of WO in the Canada/British Army.
We had Pte-WO1 rank (7 ranks), The navy OS-CPO (5Ranks),The Airforce AFC-WO1(7Ranks). In WW2 Sec Ic was a Cpl, Plt 2ic was a Sgt, and a Staff was the CQMS,Ops Sgt, WO2s were the RQMS, and nay snr sgt rank. WO 2 was the CSM, RSM WO1. The navy, Sec Ic was a AS, the dept hard was a PO, and the coxan etc was a CPO. The Airforce was the same as the Army for ground crew. For Flight crew a Cpl was a gunner, navigator, bombier, or pilot in training. As (Trained) he was promoted to Sgt. He could then be promoted to a Staff after a time. If he wished or was forced to, he was promoted to Flight LT.
Once we unified we had to have a standard rank, for all. So they came up with this.
Army Navy
New Old New Old
Pte B Pte OS OS
PteT " LS LS
Cpl LCpl AS AS
MCpl Cpl MS "
Sgt Sgt PO PO
WO SSgt PO2 CPO
MWO WO2 PO1 "
CWO WO1 CPO "
The Air force was and is the same as the Army.
A lil history of the WO Rank. It is stated that the WO rank is a Government General Commissioned Officer, not Queen/King Commissioned. This is from the old British Army, that states :
A Warrant will be issued to a Soldier promoted from the Sgt rank. He holds this Warrant superior to NCOs but subordinate to Officers. Even though he is an Officer, he will not be saluted.
But today in the Canadian Army only CWOs get a scroll. The first Warrants were in soldiers in Stores and Tpt. First issued in 1879. They are NOT Snr NCOs but WOs.
I hope this helps out.
:evil: :tank:
The WO2 and WO1 ranks still exist in the British Army (equivalent to MWO and CWO), - addressed as 'Sir' by subordinates but not saluted. Both ranks receive a 'Warrant'.
There was also briefly a WO3 rank in the late 1930s and early 1940s - the 'Platoon Sergeant Major' who was a platoon commander.
Up to 1949, the Royal Navy (and Royal Canadian Navy) had an officer-grade WO, similar to the current US Warrant Officer. WOs were reintroduced in the RN in 1970 - the current WO1 is equivalent to a Canadian CPO1, the WO2 is equivalent to a CPO2.
There was also briefly a WO3 rank in the late 1930s and early 1940s - the 'Platoon Sergeant Major' who was a platoon commander.
Up to 1949, the Royal Navy (and Royal Canadian Navy) had an officer-grade WO, similar to the current US Warrant Officer. WOs were reintroduced in the RN in 1970 - the current WO1 is equivalent to a Canadian CPO1, the WO2 is equivalent to a CPO2.
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I know we've discussed this before but "old" LCpl was equivelent (in terms of responsibility) to the "new" MCpl". Old Cpl was new Sgt. Old Sgt and SSgt are new Warrant Officer. The old system (still used by most Commonwealth countries) has two ranks at the Senior NCO level (Sgt/SSgt - in our Army a WO will perform the roles of both these ranks)) whereas our new system has two ranks at the basic soldier level (Pte/Cpl).
Wesley has said that the Aussie Army is phasing out the rank of Staff Sergeant.
Wesley has said that the Aussie Army is phasing out the rank of Staff Sergeant.
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