Voluntary Occupational Transfer ( VOT )

[Kat Stevens]

ahhh...ok, thanks George.  Say my trade is a "RED" trade.........does that make it harder to VOT out of it?
  I guess what I'm asking is, can your CoC screw you on trying to VOT?

In a word, yes.

 

[George Wallace]

If it is Red, you can not VOT......................unless it is for a serious reason, such as Medical, in that you can no longer perform your duties to the standards required for your Trade - and then that would be a Medical Remuster, as opposed to a VOT, anyway.

 

[niceasdrhuxtable]

If it is Red, you can not VOT......................unless it is for a serious reason, such as Medical, in that you can no longer perform your duties to the standards required for your Trade - and then that would be a Medical Remuster, as opposed to a VOT, anyway.

I don't believe that's correct. Every trade has a certain number of people they allow out every year, some more than others. The "red" trades just tend to have very low numbers that are allowed to remuster out (although, I've never seen the number listed at 0).

Conversely, if you apply for a COTP trade, you don't have to worry about the manning levels at all

*edit*
My word of advice having come through the OT process semi-recently, it reflects rather poorly on you as an OT candidate if you make it seem as if you're just trying to get out of your old trade. It's best to have a trade in mind and possibly some closely related trades that you might request, vice just trying to get out of your old one. Intake boards want people who are motivated and dedicated to succeeding in a given trade, not just people looking to escape from something else.

Anyway, good luck with your memo and your OT.

 

[George Wallace]

Time for a RMS Clerk to wade in.

 

[Roy Harding]

Time for a RMS Clerk to wade in.

You're doin' fine, George.

 

[Quag]

We should take a step backward.

While I understand that contracts are contracts and its the military "song and dance", let me put a spin on things.

First, the CF is hurting for numbers; no new news here.  If you are a competent soldier, I see no reason why you cannot negotiate your contract.  It happens frequently, regardless of what some of you might object with.  Obviously this is due to the supply and demand, there is not enough supply of soldiers and the demand is large, therefore the CF has the means to accomodate you.

This being said, it is not a simple process, and would take lots and lots of prodding and fishing and waiting out.

I'm not bashing anything, I'm just saying that like any job, if they want you bad enough they will compromise with your needs, the CF included.

Now the crap will pile on me, but for those asking about the VOT, don't give up, it is not an impossible thing.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Wow, I wish I would have joined your army!  The one  was in had me sign my re-engagement papers, three weeks after my three year BE was up, in front of my SSM.  "What are my options here sir?"  I asked.
  "Sign them right now, or have your crap out of my shacks before sundown tonight." he said.
  "Do you have a pen I could use, sir?" I replied

Contract negotiation 101, 15 Sup Sqn SSM style.

 

[aesop081]

Now the crap will pile on me, but for those asking about the VOT, don't give up, it is not an impossible thing.

Quite right, it is Not impossible.  I am proof of that and so are others.

In my experience, those who go into the OT process with nothing more than "i want out of my current MOC" dont get much farther that the BPSO.  I have seen it many times.  When you put in your memo for OT you should explain your reasons why ( and not "i hate my job"......because my boss hates me".....etc....) and include what trade you intend to OT to.  I did this when i remustered and it helped some peope understand my reasoning.  

Now on the matter of contracts.  its all fine and dandy to say " you can negotiate".  Well, no, not realy. The terms of service simply dont work that way.  You cant go, at the end of you engagement, say "i will re-sign but for MOC XXX"......Trades have requirements for OT applicants and there is no option on the paperwork to send you to another MOC.  If you are not willing to sign your new terms of service in your current MOC and let the OT process take its course, then release and join back up a few months later.

That the original poster doesnt have a trade in mind or cannot say so on a memo ( presumably) is indicative, to me, that he wants out o his trade simply as a hissy fit.  People like that are not happy in any MOC and a remuster will solve little.  This is my opinion based solely on the info at hand.

 

[Quag]

OK I think I might have been a little misinterpreted.  I didn't mean throwing in a huge curveball like a whole MOC change clause as the original poster wanted.

It was in response to some of the other posters stating that contracts are "set in stone" etc...  Not true; things like lengths, postings (rare but I have first hand experience with this) etc... can be negotiated.

Just food for thought.

 

[aesop081]

It was in response to some of the other posters stating that contracts are "set in stone" etc...  Not true; things like lengths, postings (rare but I have first hand experience with this) etc... can be negotiated.

CAN be....but only at the whim of the current career manager.....i have personaly seen 2 individuals make such "deals" with the CM and get screwed.  You see, in both those cases, there was a CM change afterwards.....the new one said "hell no.......you take the posting or get out !!!"

There is NO formal negotiation process for terms of service....so you take your chances....

More food for thought

 

[Blakey]

It was in response to some of the other posters stating that contracts are "set in stone" etc...  Not true; things like lengths, postings (rare but I have first hand experience with this) etc... can be negotiated.

Just food for thought.

Care to swing by Shilo within the next week or so?, I have to Accept or Reject my CE.  

 

[George Wallace]

Then again, you can try a "Compassionate" Posting, but remember that usually has career ramifications.

 

[aesop081]

Then again, you can try a "Compassionate" Posting, but remember that usually has career ramifications.

There ARE career ramifications to "compassionate" postings.......IIRC, no career course, no tours and the posting has to rectify the problem and will be re-evaluated after 2 years, at which time you ca be posted/deployed once again

 

[George Wallace]

There ARE career ramifications to "compassionate" postings.......IIRC, no career course, no tours and the posting has to rectify the problem and will be re-evaluated after 2 years, at which time you ca be posted/deployed once again

That is true, but we have all seen one or two exceptions. 

 

[aesop081]

That is true, but we have all seen one or two exceptions. 

True, but at any rate, a compassionate posting wont fix an MOC issue..... ;D

 

[Blakey]

George-CDN, How would this be reflected on you file?, or would it just be a note in the CM's database? I was posted from 3 RCR to 2 PPCLI in '92.

I had originally asked for the re badge for personal reasons (parents lived there, father getting old....). It was rejected so I was going to take my release (1st BE). During my outclearence, CSM asks "You still want that posting?" I says "Yes I do Sergeant Major".....poof, 21 days of day on day off duty later I was in Winnipeg.

Thing is, I hadn't really thought to ask if it was a "compassionate posting" or if the two CM's swung a deal.

Thanks, just more for curiosity sake at this point in the game.

 

[aesop081]

George-CDN, How would this be reflected on you file?, or would it just be a note in the CM's database? I was posted from 3 RCR to 2 PPCLI in '92.

I had originally asked for the re badge for personal reasons (parents lived there, father getting old....). It was rejected so I was going to take my release (1st BE). During my outclearence, CSM asks "You still want that posting?" I says "Yes I do Sergeant Major".....poof, 21 days of day on day off duty later I was in Winnipeg.

Thing is, I hadn't really thought to ask if it was a "compassionate posting" or if the two CM's swung a deal.

Thanks, just more for curiosity sake at this point in the game.

Here...read this:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/DAOD/5003/6_e.asp

 

[George Wallace]

Sounds like a couple of CSMs or RSMs got together with the Career Manager (Only one in a Branch/Trade).  If it were for a 'Commpassionate' reason you would of probably been properly informed.  I have seen similar things done in the Armour Corps.  I have seen RSMs and SSMs sons posted out of the Regiment for similar reasons.  

It would be rare to use this as a reason for a VOT, unless you were a English Major in University and used a lot of 'creative writting' in your memo.  

It is also unlikely that anyone can negotiate a contract to achieve a VOT or to affect their options in a new Trade.  Anything that they may think is only perceived, not factual.  If anything, it would be due to a change in a policy, a Crse CTP, Terms of Service, etc., that may have happened concurrently to their attempts to VOT.  

I just taught on a 5's Crse.  It was different from the one last year.  The next 5's is going to be 20 days longer.  Crses and Trades are constantly changing with the times, so one's perception of what transpired may in fact not be the reality.  This would be most evident amongst the less experienced members of the CF.

 

[Blakey]

CDN, thanks.

George, thanks.

 

[Quag]

CAN be....but only at the whim of the current career manager.....i have personaly seen 2 individuals make such "deals" with the CM and get screwed.  You see, in both those cases, there was a CM change afterwards.....the new one said "hell no.......you take the posting or get out !!!"

There is NO formal negotiation process for terms of service....so you take your chances....

More food for thought

Ok I'm not trying to drag the subject on or anything, but there is can be a formal negotiation process for terms of service.  I am an example, and many of my friends are examples. 

Take for example, CF offers you a 10 year contract, however you don't want to commit that much time.  Through various means, you negotiate a shorter committment (take for example 5 years), and you sign on the dotted line stating the exact terms.

The CF can decide to try to yank your crank, but you have a legal contract.  Now I don't want to get into the formalities about if you had to take it to court etc..., but this is just merely one example of what I was trying to convey.

Make sure that whatever you agree to is written down, signed by both parties, and you have copies.