Victoria is facing a public-safety crisis

[CBH99]

There is a pretty big security company called Paladin Security that, I believe, is nation wide and has offices in most cities.

With the exception of the security guards who work at the hospitals (they have the contract to provide services to Alberta Health Services) - but on the retail side, they are quite exclusively prohibited from actually getting involved.

They have a heavily enforced “Zero Contact” policy for their employees… as they are there to ‘Call the police, observe, and report. To also produce a report of any incidents to the manager of the contracting business” - aka the mall… so basically useless.

If you are being attacked or feel as if you are in danger, don’t expect them to come to your aid.

(West Edmonton Mall security is the exception. They undergo quite an impressive training course with refresher training on a consistent basis, usually done in conjunction with Edmonton Police Service. They have a very close working relationship with EPS as there is a police station right in the mall.)


What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem? (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)

 

[mariomike]

That's why they are there in such numbers but lets face facts, much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years. Deinstitutionalization replaced many mental health institutions by a loose grouping of homes, care homes, and half way houses with far too many diverting to the streets, general hospitals and, all too often, jails.

It's politically incorrect to point out that the system, while laudable, may have gone too far and lost control.

The problem that Victoria is, and other cities are, facing is less a police problem but more a mental health services problem.

Deinstitutionalization of Queen St Mental Health Centre and Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital in South Etobicoke discharged thousands of patients.

The experts called it "community based care".

Sounds like the same, or something similar, may have happened in Victoria.

The response time for “priority one” calls, such as threat to life or assault, is now 15 minutes.

I wonder how many professional bank robbers - like Canada's infamous "Stop Watch Gang - read that?

Stopwatch Gang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They were known for robbing banks in two minutes or less

What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem?

Armed bank guards, for a start.

 

[CBH99]

Deinstitutionalization of Queen St Mental Health Centre and Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital in South Etobicoke discharged thousands of patients.

The experts called it "community based care".

Sounds like the same, or something similar, may have happened in Victoria.



I wonder how many professional bank robbers - like Canada's infamous "Stop Watch Gang - read that?

Stopwatch Gang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Armed bank guards, for a start.

Armed bank guards, and the legislation that allows them to use force if need be, AND protects them from prosecution if their actions are deemed reasonable and within the scope of their training. Totally agreed.

Something similar for private security (aka rent-a-cops) that handle retail security, site security (office buildings, parkades, etc) - encourage the companies to grow a spine, and actually keep their sites fairly secure. (They are SECURE-ITY after all.)


In terms of the bigger picture… Would opening up a centralized facility/institution be helpful? Rather than this ‘community based care’ - which sounds exactly like it was described above…government passing the problem to another level of government.

(Hey, it’s October now..may I recommend something akin to The Purge series of movies?)

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem? (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)

Aggressive enforcement and imprisonment of the perps. Those who undergo forced treatment graduate to freedom, those who can't remain institutionalized. This is unlikely to happen any time soon so honestly what it will probably take will be something very bad happening.

This is essentially what has happened in parts of Europe. The Anti-Okupas companies I mentioned earlier came about as a result of Police and Government inaction in Spain.

Basically communities got sick of the squatters and took matters in to their own hands. A couple of videos that show neighborhoods removing squatters themselves:

 

[mariomike]

(Hey, it’s October now..may I recommend something akin to The Purge series of movies?)

Didn't watch it.

Remember going to the Bronson movies.

It’s like killing roaches – you have to kill ’em all. Otherwise, what’s the use?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Aggressive enforcement and imprisonment of the perps. Those who undergo forced treatment graduate to freedom, those who can't remain institutionalizer. This is unlikely to happen any time soon so honestly what it will probably take will be something very bad happening.

This.

Alot of the pond life are crimimals, but the city council is treating them like in pateints in a giant medical experiment.

 

[OldSolduer]

This.

Alot of the pond life are crimimals, but the city council is treating them like in pateints in a giant medical experiment.

You might want to listen to a podcast about an event in 1436 in Muenster. Dan Carlin is the host.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You might want to listen to a podcast about an event in 1436 in Muenster. Dan Carlin is the host.

Sorry, I can't hear anything right now over the 'morning chorus' of sirens on the streets below

 

[CBH99]

Sorry, I can't hear anything right now over the 'morning chorus' of sirens on the streets below

I told you to stop feeling up that ISIS fighter’s wife, who gave you the name “Dark”…

Those sirens might be there for the two of you! Quick. Throw a lamp shade over your head, stand in the corner, and hope it’s Lethbridge police showing up for some odd reason

 

[CBH99]

Didn't watch it.

Remember going to the Bronson movies.

One night a year, all crime is legal. All crime. It helps people ‘purge’ it from their system, but I can’t help think it would probably help society purge the algae eaters that hold it back…

As far as fun, cheesy, somewhat creative horror flicks, they aren’t too bad. Don’t have to pay much attention to them at all to know exactly what’s happening in the ‘story’

 

[ModlrMike]

This.

Alot of the pond life are criminals, but the city council is treating them like in pateints in a giant medical experiment.

That's because everything is now considered a sickness, which removes accountability from the individual, and transfers it to everyone else.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In Malaysia if your found high, it's automatic rehab camp for you, recovery rates are about 14%, but it gives them a chance to recovery and be clean for a bit. I have watched some really nice homeless people simply degraded over time and get worse and worse. Really sad. Friend of mine was doing brainscans of homeless people and life on the street eventually does enough damage that even if they are clean, they can never live a normal life again.

 

[CBH99]

In Malaysia if your found high, it's automatic rehab camp for you, recovery rates are about 14%, but it gives them a chance to recovery and be clean for a bit. I have watched some really nice homeless people simply degraded over time and get worse and worse. Really sad. Friend of mine was doing brainscans of homeless people and life on the street eventually does enough damage that even if they are clean, they can never live a normal life again.

What always blew my mind, and I learned to just distance myself in a way from the problem - was the unjust way things seem to work out for some, and not for others.

I suppose the same can be said for everybody on planet Earth, but in regards to the homeless situation here in Edmonton…

We have a few homeless folks (quite a few) that we know on a first name basis, and guaranteed they will find a way to be remanded in prison for a few months once it gets cold. Literally they’ll just do something dumb, wait for the police, get arrested, and do the winter months at ERC.

As odd as it may sound after just saying what I did above, a lot of them are great people. Friendly, AMAZINGLY talented at artwork (wow!), and - every single one of them does have a noticeable mental health issue. And every single one of them has a great deal of difficulty accessing any help or programs that are available, for one reason or another.

They never cause trouble, are great sources of reliable intel, cooperative, etc. I genuinely enjoy buying them lunch and just chatting.


On the other hand, we have plenty of folks who are parasites of society. Constantly being arrested violently, committing violent crimes (petty, but violent in nature), make no effort to rehabilitate themselves or access any programs. Yet THESE are the ones who somehow receive THOUSANDS of dollars a month from Indian Affairs, and/or their band fund.

For the ones that found themselves on the right end of the handout conveyor belt, most of them make just as much if not more than I do.


It’s f**ked…


______


I’ve only been to Malaysia once, and not for long. But they seemed to have a pretty solid head on their shoulders when it came to this stuff.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... As odd as it may sound after just saying what I did above, a lot of them are great people. Friendly, AMAZINGLY talented at artwork (wow!), and - every single one of them does have a noticeable mental health issue. And every single one of them has a great deal of difficulty accessing any help or programs that are available, for one reason or another ...

That. Right. There. We see/hear of all sorts of programming available, but it seems not many people who need them seem to be able to access them. I see the same issues in my little bit of Ontario as well. There may be a few who don't want them for whatever reason, but nail hit precisely on the head.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Or they make the programs impossible to access, so that makes it appear that things are being done and the professionals get to have nice jobs while limiting engagements with icky clients.

 

[Weinie]

Or they make the programs impossible to access, so that makes it appear that things are being done and the professionals get to have nice well paying jobs while limiting engagements with icky clients.

FTFY.

 

[Haggis]

Armed bank guards, and the legislation that allows them to use force if need be, AND protects them from prosecution if their actions are deemed reasonable and within the scope of their training. Totally agreed.

Something similar for private security (aka rent-a-cops) that handle retail security, site security (office buildings, parkades, etc) - encourage the companies to grow a spine, and actually keep their sites fairly secure. (They are SECURE-ITY after all.)

When the former Public Safety Minister tabled Bill C-21 during the last parliamentary session he made it very clear that Canadians do not "arm themselves for protection from their fellow citizens".

Armoured transport guards are armed for self protection, not the protection of the assets being moved. Those assets are insured. The same goes for banks. The liability costs for an unjustified use of force incident would far outweigh the insured loss from a robbery. Extend that example to shopping malls and the liability, though shared by all the tenants, is hugely increased.

My cousin was the VP of sales for a large farm equipment corporation. His territory included eastern Europe and the Caucasus region. They built employee ransom into the cost of every farm implement they sold over there. Like bank robberies, it's just a cost of doing business.

 

[mariomike]

What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem? (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)

OK. It may not be PC, but we called them skells.

There weren't body cams or cell phone cameras back then.
not to suggest the example in this video is the correct solution,

A Dallas paramedic kicked a homeless man in the face​

, much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years.

I had a front row seat for that.

But, Mayor Bill Dennsion said it really went back to 1968 with the arrival of tens of thousands of draft dodgers in Canada.
"Hippies and deserters are Toronto's only problem."

Presumably, some went to Vancouver.

 

[CBH99]

OK. It may not be PC, but we called them skells.

There weren't body cams or cell phone cameras back then.
not to suggest the example in this video is the correct solution,

A Dallas paramedic kicked a homeless man in the face​

I didn’t work EMS for very long, but even in the short time that I was there I still had a few calls where we (police and EMS) had combative patients, combative partners/families, etc.

When a combative person looks up at you, and starts to get back up - it isn’t unreasonable to try and quickly make sure they stay down. Ofcourse it’s always luck that of an entire situation, the kick is what the camera saw.

 

[CBH99]

When the former Public Safety Minister tabled Bill C-21 during the last parliamentary session he made it very clear that Canadians do not "arm themselves for protection from their fellow citizens".

Armoured transport guards are armed for self protection, not the protection of the assets being moved. Those assets are insured. The same goes for banks. The liability costs for an unjustified use of force incident would far outweigh the insured loss from a robbery. Extend that example to shopping malls and the liability, though shared by all the tenants, is hugely increased.

My cousin was the VP of sales for a large farm equipment corporation. His territory included eastern Europe and the Caucasus region. They built employee ransom into the cost of every farm implement they sold over there. Like bank robberies, it's just a cost of doing business.

Fair enough, and solid points.

In the context of reversing the trend in Victoria, as per some of the issues mentioned both in the article and upthread, I was/am trying to brainstorm some easy to implement solutions that could help start the momentum.

You have respectable law enforcement experience, and your posts are always reasonable.


I’d be curious to hear some thoughts or ideas of yours, if Victoria city council approached you and said “Haggis, what do we do to fix this?”