VC, Medal of Bravery, Star of Courage...Where are the nominations?

[GO!!!]

Any substantiation 3rd Horseman?

Unit/dates/action/links?

 

[3rd Horseman]

Grow up gunner.

Teddy, Im not sure ( I can only assume this as I was not part of the decision), dont know why, wish it was not so. For Bosnia, actions on Mount Taggchichi (probably spelt it wrong dont have a map near me)

Edit For GO
Unit special ops unit attached to 3R22R, summer 95, link - dont know the link but a 3 hour mini series detailed part of the action "Op Tango"

 

[KevinB]

Hypothetically IF it where secret (and I sincerly DOUBT it) - do you really think mentioning it on the internet is a proefessional thing to do?
  Not to mention IF you where aware you have IMHO violated the official secrets act for disclosing a classified item to those who have no clearance.

Grow up -- I'm really sorry you missed a war - but dont try to re-invent history - yes shit happened in the FYR years -- but not on the scale you implie

 

[3rd Horseman]

Hypothetically IF it where secret (and I sincerly DOUBT it) - do you really think mentioning it on the internet is a proefessional thing to do?
Well it has been 10 years the time has run out, and I have not mentioned anthing about secret
  Not to mention IF you where aware you have IMHO violated the official secrets act for disclosing a classified item to those who have no clearance.

Grow up -- I'm really sorry you missed a war - but dont try to re-invent history - yes crap happened in the FYR years -- but not on the scale you implie
Did not implie anything other than Valour award for the FRY years. Dont know what the citations read for Croatia but it would be interesting to compare the issue with the Pocket.

 

[GAP]

.

 

[3rd Horseman]

GAP - you can enjoy the popcorn better watching the movie of the action a little corny but some details are loosely based on fact, OP TANGO.

No need to highjack the thread it has been very good. Im time out.

 

[Haggis]

GAP - you can enjoy the popcorn better watching the movie of the action a little corny but some details are loosely based on fact, OP TANGO.

OP TANGO was the subject of a Discovery Channel episode of "Navy SEALS: Untold Stories" wherein the producers couldn't even get the pronounciation of place names correct.  Some source.

3rd Horseman:  I stand by my source.  It is publicly available and authoritative.  And, more importantly in an open forum, it is unclassified. 

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Sounds to me like the CO 'buttering him up".  (Why? I have no idea, nor do I care.)  How did it make your friend feel?

To protect the integrity of the honours and awards system.  It's not up to the nominee or "others" in the nominee's unit (who form the court of public opinon) to determine, in advance or after the fact , that a member should have/could have/would have gotten said honour/award.

Re-read bilton 090's post and then tell me this:  would YOU like to know that YOU were nominated for an award only to find out some months later that you didn't make the cut and have someone who has NO IDEA WHY fabricate a reason for your non selection?

I agree with you. My friend felt badly...it would have been better for all concerned if the CO had kept his mouth shut.

 

[Doug VT]

There were 2 Stars of Courage, and 4 Mention in Dispatches awarded for actions relating directly to the 2 separate incidents which occurred on Op Athena ROTO 0.  The mine strike on 2 Oct 2003, and the suicide attack on 27 Jan 2004.

 

[Babbling Brooks]

There were 2 Stars of Courage, and 4 Mention in Dispatches awarded for actions relating directly to the 2 separate incidents which occurred on Op Athena ROTO 0.  The mine strike on 2 Oct 2003, and the suicide attack on 27 Jan 2004.

Doug, I'd be interested in finding out more about those recognitions - do you have a link?

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

They're all listed here; search by date:

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/index_e.asp?TypeID=br

 

[Gunner]

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/index_e.asp?results=1&Lastname=&Firstname=&City=&Province=&TypeID=mid&AwardStart=10%2F4%2F2004&AwardEnd=&npp=25

Here are two of the MiD's mentioned by Doug.

 

[Doug VT]

Mine strike, 2 Oct 2003

Star Of Courage

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=br&id=26445

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=br&id=26446

Mention in Dispatches

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=mid&id=615

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=mid&id=601

Suicide Attack, 27 Jan 2004

Mention in Dispatches

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=mid&id=667

http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=mid&id=669

All 6 awards were to members of the 3RCR Parachute Company.

 

[pbi]

I have to agree with Guner: the article, although very well-intentioned, contains a number of inaccuracies and exaggerations. They need to see the video clips of Canadian commanders in theatre, as well as the CDS, who regularly speak with pride about the qualities of our troops. Combat Camera has shown footage of combat, etc. I think it is a very, very far stretch to say that anybody is hiding or avoiding anything. This is not the CF in the 90's again. We are not hiding a Medak from the Canadian people this time.  Quite the opposite, from the CDS down. We had a briefing recently at the College from the Deputy Chief of Military Personnel Command (replaces ADM HR (Mil)) in which he told us that the CDS has directed them to shake up the honours and awards system, so that in-theatre commanders have greater authority to award, and extraneous staff are cut out of the system. This is great news. The intended end state will be that those who deserve honours and awards, especially those won in combat, will get them as quickly as reasonable investigation and substantion permit.

Cheers

 

[Infanteer]

Wow, some people sure get wrapped up around "shiny's".  I got a couple if anyone wants them....

Anyways, to get over the bunfight on medals, I found PBI's posts about "shaking up the system" interesting.  Is there perhaps room to award things in different manners or with  different devices?  I always found the German system in WWII interesting.  There were traditional "Valour" awards, but there was also a method of awarding the Knights Cross for successive and cumulative acts of leadership underfire (being that it was a "fuhrerheer" and all) - from section commander up to Army commander were eligible if they showed the goods for successfully leading their men in combat.

http://www.feldgrau.com/rk.html

As well as being awarded for individual actions, the RK could also be awarded to a unit commander in recognition of the performance of his unit as a whole. 

Perhaps a modern equivalent of this would be the current DSO, which I always liked.

As well, there was awards for meeting specific battlefield criteria, such as the Infantry Assault Badge, the close combat bar, etc, etc.  There was a wound badge as well.  Although I find the very specific nature of these a bit different, I think they rank akin to the "Combat Medal" and the "Wound Medal" we've discussed elsewhere on these forums.

This, of course, brings up the cons of such an approach to battlefield recognition - how much is too much?  I've always found that a paucity of stuff on a uniform kind of highlights the things that actually are on there - as long as those that have earned their due are awarded it in good time.  Is an SWASM with an Afghan bar sign enough of what a fellow has done?  The last thing I want to see is us taking the US Army's approach (it is their tradition, but it doesn't mean I have to like it), where we paste our friggen CV to our tunic and end up looking like a glitterball or something after a few years in.

I think a shakeup can never hurt, but I'll argue that we need to keep a firm grip on the criteria for which we award things for (which may or may not need to be expanded) and the level of control we require on their disbursement (we've probably all heard the Vietnam stories of S1's putting themselves and their CO's in for nice medals for nothing).

Anyways, my 2 cents,
Infanteer

 

[warrickdll]

...
Perhaps a modern equivalent of this would be the current DSO, which I always liked.
...

It is odd that the Canadian system, which has done a good job keeping valour awards for valour purposes, has done such a poor job distinguishing combat leadership/effectiveness.

One of the banes of the US system is the dual use of the Bronze and Silver Stars. Sure, the "V" device is used but that doesn't scale very well. Multiple awards do not represent how many were for "V", and it never balances well having 2 completely different devices on a ribbon (i.e. "V" and palm).

Canada could have stuck with the system used for Meritorious Service MSM/MSC/OMM (OMM being MMM, OMM, and CMM) and carried it through to Distinguished Service as DSM/DSC/DSO.

Then again, to fully rationalize the system, all those MiDs and commendations should be split into whatever category they were actually for and made into actual medals (too many pins). Shift things a bit. And then you end up with MMV/MSV/MCV/VC, DSM/DSS/DSC/DSO, and MSM/MSS/MSC/OMM. But then that would crazy talk.

 

[jranrose]

I agree to a shake up. I previously posted a comment on what I think here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33771.0/all.html
I'll repeat it because I think it applies here.

Here are my thoughts.
I like the idea and the title it has a nice ring. Unfortunately it is 30 years too late. There is no need to replace the Victoria Cross (VC). The VC is a world-renowned medal. Everyone knows what it is and what it stands for. If this were to be taken seriously, I would focus more on the Cross of Valour (CV). The title "Cross of Valour" is a little inaccurate. The CV is a bravery decoration NOT a valour decoration. Valour decorations includes Victoria Cross (VC), Star of Military Valour (SMV) and Medal of Military Valour (MMV). The Bravery decorations include Cross of Valour (CV), Star of Courage (SC) and Medal of Bravery (MB). But why stop there? Currently there are 6 awards for Valour and Bravery. I believe it should be more streamlined with changing the wording and get rid of the SMV and MMV. To look more like this.

Victoria Cross
awarded for the most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice, or extreme devotion to duty, in the presence of the enemy

Cross of Valour/ Vimy Cross
awarded for acts of the most conspicuous Gallantry in circumstances of extreme peril and or distinguished and valiant service

Star of Courage
awarded for acts of conspicuous courage in circumstances of great peril

Medal of Bravery
awarded for acts of bravery in hazardous circumstances or devotion to duty

I understand there are different levels of heroism (pulling someone out of a burning building as opposed to Armed conflict). But all awards should be for all Canadians regardless if they are civvies or military (Except VC), because civilians can be involved in armed conflict on behalf of Canadian interests. This creates progressive stages to include Bravery (MB), Courage (SC), Gallantry (CV) and Valour (VC). This makes the lines a little clearer for awarding decorations.

Also looking at the Meritorious Service Cross (MSC) and Medal (MSM). Both awards are almost the same. The MSC being a rare high standard and the MSM being very high standard. I think there should be an added "Leadership" clause to the MSC. There is a small gap missing for "Leadership". Similar to the British Distinguished Service Order (DSO) or by adding a separate award for the shortcoming.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

A passel of honours and awards are about to be announced - Roto 0 and Roto 1.  Some of them are for courage / valour.  The system has been shaken up and is working.

 

[probum non poenitet]

A passel of honours and awards are about to be announced - Roto 0 and Roto 1.  Some of them are for courage / valour.  The system has been shaken up and is working.

I'd say everyone with a SWASM has already earned a medal for courage/valour, if you know what I mean ...

 

[Bartok5]

An MSM, MID and several CDS Commendations for pers deployed on the PRT Roto 0 were announced at 3 PPCLI's morning parade today.  Since the awards have not been officially presented, I will leave names for the official CANFORGEN/CANLANDGEN.