US Navy Woes

[dapaterson]

Part I of the solution is simple: VdQ, MON and SHA get home ported in Quebec City. FMF, magazines etc remain in Halifax; but there will be a need to stand up a shore office. Give Francophone sailors the ability to have their families live and work in a French community.

The RCN's lack of a Francophone CRCN is, I suspect, the CAF's gender equity issue in a microcosm: like selects like. So portly Anglophone admirals select other portly Anglophone sailors to become commodores and admirals. Who, in turn and down the line, select the same for the command positions that are part of the gatekeeping.

 

[NavyShooter]

There is just enough space for a Halifax Class ship to be tied up in front of NRHQ in QC. I cannot speak for the depth, but a dredge could probably help things along if needed.



I would suggest that this is an idea with some merit - and would give an opportunity to 'show off' the fleet a bit more to our adoring public.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Part I of the solution is simple: VdQ, MON and SHA get home ported in Quebec City. FMF, magazines etc remain in Halifax; but there will be a need to stand up a shore office. Give Francophone sailors the ability to have their families live and work in a French community.

The RCN's lack of a Francophone CRCN is, I suspect, the CAF's gender equity issue in a microcosm: like selects like. So portly Anglophone admirals select other portly Anglophone sailors to become commodores and admirals. Who, in turn and down the line, select the same for the command positions that are part of the gatekeeping.

I like it!

 

[quadrapiper]

I'm sure MONTCALM and CHAMPLAIN would be keen on the idea!

 

[CBH99]

This.

All of this.

The boots on the deckplates are, from everything I've heard, being worn past the sole and into the sock. The deck plates are cracking, and the millions worth of plate steel that ISI gave back to the RCN following the MLR that they didn't have time/money to install is now coming home to roost. Ships that were surveyed on entry to the HCM project have still not had that metal work done in many areas. That's....concerning....

As for recruiting, the failure to leverage the downturn in jobs in the civilian economy and turn the military into a 'preferred choice' employer is a clear failure of the recruiting system. Yes, COVID slowed stuff down a lot, but now that things are returning to 'normal' there needs to be a concerted push to get folks in the door and into uniforms. 12% of recruiting goals is not just terrible, it's practically a death knell.

NS

Before I pipe in with some possible solutions or ideas, quick question. (As a non-navy guy, my experience as a unit recruiter and being course staff is solely within the Army.)

Is the recruiting/BMQ training issue you are referring, is that looking at regular force, reserve, or both??

 

[Navy_Pete]

Part I of the solution is simple: VdQ, MON and SHA get home ported in Quebec City. FMF, magazines etc remain in Halifax; but there will be a need to stand up a shore office. Give Francophone sailors the ability to have their families live and work in a French community.

The RCN's lack of a Francophone CRCN is, I suspect, the CAF's gender equity issue in a microcosm: like selects like. So portly Anglophone admirals select other portly Anglophone sailors to become commodores and admirals. Who, in turn and down the line, select the same for the command positions that are part of the gatekeeping.

We can't afford another FMF, and most of the ship's crews aren't Francophones anyway. Most Francos I know had fun on VdQ at some point, but didn't want to get pigeon holed there, which is what was happening when VdQ was a french unit. It was okay when they were busy, but a few of them got stuck there, and missed out on career opportunities because of the lack of replacements. Similarly waiting for the french versions of the trade courses delayed their career, so most did it in English. Not a big deal for the officers who cycle on/off a lot and don't typically jetty jump, but it was really bad for the trades.

All of our shore equipment for trial support is located on the two coasts and probably couldn't duplicate it in the St. Lawrence, so they would actually spend more of their time away from their families then they do now, as the whole trial period would be based out of Halifax. Right now they can pop out for a day sail to get things done vice spending a week in transit and having to stay in Halifax for 6-8 months of the TRP. Complete logistical nightmare. Plus the St. Lawrence shuts down at some point, so they would need to either leave or we'd lose the asset until it thaws.

The Great Lakes trips are great PR items, but something like what you are proposing would absolute break us IMO. We're probably already at the point were we should seriously consider tying a few CPFs up to consolidate the crews and make repairs, so a massive change like that would likely result in a few happy people and a lot of releases.

 

[dapaterson]

Not calling for FMF on the St Lawrence. Calling for ships to be based there, and sent to Halifax for that sort of maintenance.

The RCN seems to be actively repelling 25% of Canadians from serving, then wonders why they are short personnel.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The RCN actively repels more than 25% of Canadians. Why would someone join it at the moment? Guarantee to be away from family and all those electronics and technology we have grown so accustomed to. Don't get to do anything too fun and exciting. You want to travel and party? The Navy isn't for you. You enjoy being crammed in a boat with 250 other people for long periods of time with no opportunity to let off steam? I might just have your dream job.

Most jobs which are away from home for long periods are losing their appeal to the general public. Partially due to the change in culture, partly due to the increase in the welfare state and the resulting lack of desperation which once drove people into careers like the Navy (historical solutions were things like press gangs). Marine careers in general are having a tough time recruiting, most the shipping in the world is manned by people from less fortunate countries.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Not calling for FMF on the St Lawrence. Calling for ships to be based there, and sent to Halifax for that sort of maintenance.

The RCN seems to be actively repelling 25% of Canadians from serving, then wonders why they are short personnel.

Alongside = doing maintenance. Even outside of SWPs, unless it's a weekend you will never not have at least someone come on board for repairs. Even a lot of weekends has something ongoing. The ships are 30 years old and not well maintained. Basing them somewhere without an FMF is basically a deployment scenario.

 

[NavyShooter]

Unless we boost the ISSC type maintenance (In Service Support Contract), which from what I've seen is actually more responsive than FMF work on the East coast.

The way FMF runs their 'business', this is likely to happen sooner rather than later anyhow IMO.

I saw a job that had the riggers moving a several ton object onto the back of a truck the other day using a fitted overhead crane.

There were 16 people wearing hard-hats that showed up. They moved the one object, the two guys unwrapping it to move it didn't wear safety harnesses, the materiel they peeled off to unwrap it was left on the floor, and they didn't load the additional 5 cases that go with the object...so...they overmanned a task, and didn't complete it, so they're going to have to come back and spend another day working at it to complete it.

In any civilian company, they would have sent probably 3 people, the mess would have been cleaned up, and all 6 items would have made it onto the truck in probably the same amount of time.

 

[Good2Golf]

There were 16 people wearing hard-hats that showed up. They moved the one object, the two guys unwrapping it to move it didn't wear safety harnesses, the materiel they peeled off to unwrap it was left on the floor, and they didn't load the additional 5 cases that go with the object...so...they overmanned a task, and didn't complete it, so they're going to have to come back and spend another day working at it to complete it.

Reminds me of the joke back in the day…

“What’s yellow, and sleeps 6?”

 

[Navy_Pete]

Unless we boost the ISSC type maintenance (In Service Support Contract), which from what I've seen is actually more responsive than FMF work on the East coast.

The way FMF runs their 'business', this is likely to happen sooner rather than later anyhow IMO.

I saw a job that had the riggers moving a several ton object onto the back of a truck the other day using a fitted overhead crane.

There were 16 people wearing hard-hats that showed up. They moved the one object, the two guys unwrapping it to move it didn't wear safety harnesses, the materiel they peeled off to unwrap it was left on the floor, and they didn't load the additional 5 cases that go with the object...so...they overmanned a task, and didn't complete it, so they're going to have to come back and spend another day working at it to complete it.

In any civilian company, they would have sent probably 3 people, the mess would have been cleaned up, and all 6 items would have made it onto the truck in probably the same amount of time.

We do a lot of system level ISSC, but would still add on another layer of duplication and cost to have the same kind of support outside of Halifax. Off the top of my head I can think of a few hundred million worth of smaller system level ISSCs contracts that all offer support in Halifax for just basic systems, and all those would need to be looked at and changed (DGs, IPMS, GTs, MWAV etc). None of those have any ITAR or similar; I imagine it would be even more complicated and expensive to add a third location for the CSE equipment. The warehousing, security requirements for local sites and all kinds of other things would need to be figured out.

Agree FMF can use improvements, and drives me insane to have major jobs on hold because a single shop is unavailable and they won't contract out the minor electrical, pipefitting or whatever portion, but ISSCs have their own challenges.

We aren't currently doing much about major issues impacting retention (ie jetty hopping, lack of personnel) so probably a lot we can do before we blow up where the Navy is stationed.

 

[dapaterson]

You pass on 25% of Canada's population, you get manning problems.

Invest in QC and that will improve over time.

Or maintain the status quo... how's that working out?

 

[CBH99]

Question here guys - there’s been a lot of commentary on the Navy bypassing 25% of the population. Aka Quebec.

Is it that we don’t create opportunities for French only speaking Canadians in the Navy? Lack of recruiting initiatives, and hence awareness? Lack of naval reserve units?

With the focus on naval warfare, CSC, etc. I imagine recruiting for the Navy will become easier in the coming years?? Show the crisp ships, NTOG & boarding parties doing their thing to appeal to those who want that adventure, really advertise the financial incentives (not just salary, but free education, free certifications for things they may want to do after) - and port of calls in cool places. Streamline the recruiting process.

Recruiting could be fixed. Retention? I’ll leave that to you guys.

 

[dapaterson]

As long as you give francophones few to no options to have their families live in a French community, you will lose people.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

You pass on 25% of Canada's population, you get manning problems.

Invest in QC and that will improve over time.

Or maintain the status quo... how's that working out?

Next thing you will suggest is Naval Reserve Divisions in the Arctic that First Nations people can access…

In regards to your Quebec Homeport idea…i notice that, on occasion, the St. Lawrence seems to freeze.

Perhaps homeporting couple AOPs in QC might make more sense than a frigate?

 

[dapaterson]

If 25% of Canada's population was in the Arctic, that might be needed.

This is not a panacea for all the RCN's manning problems, but it's one step.

How long do we let the RCN continue to fail without trying something?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If 25% of Canada's population was in the Arctic, that might be needed.

This is not a panacea for all the RCN's manning problems, but it's one step.

How long do we let the RCN continue to fail without trying something?

That’s what I was saying…AOPs in QC makes a hell of a lot more sense than a frigate.

 

[dapaterson]

Certainly. Or schedule deployments / extended work periods around that...

 

[dimsum]

Question here guys - there’s been a lot of commentary on the Navy bypassing 25% of the population. Aka Quebec.

Is it that we don’t create opportunities for French only speaking Canadians in the Navy? Lack of recruiting initiatives, and hence awareness? Lack of naval reserve units?

It's definitely not lack of NRDs. 6 of the 24 are in Quebec.