Updated Army Service Dress project

[WLSC]

I’d be going off of our (QR & O) definition.

Which could/should be changed to include WO/PO1 +. Warrant is still “without a Commission” in Canada so I’m not sure why we delineated where we did, but we did.

We are used to shorten every thing, WO & Sgt is to long and look like the messes, maybe?

 

[Edward Campbell]

When does one receive her or his warrant?* Isn't that what makes one a warrant officer?

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*Warrant: a formal scroll issued, in Canada, by the MND, recognizing tan individual for their accomplishments and acknowledging them for achieving the highest level of rank for a non-commissioned member (Chapter 8 – Canadian Forces Commission Scripts and Scrolls - Canada.ca)

 

[rmc_wannabe]

When does one receive her or his warrant?* Isn't that what makes one a warrant officer?

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*Warrant: a formal scroll issued, in Canada, by the MND, recognizing tan individual for their accomplishments and acknowledging them for achieving the highest level of rank for a non-commissioned member (Chapter 8 – Canadian Forces Commission Scripts and Scrolls - Canada.ca)

It's a shame that the Warrant Scroll is now, unfortunately, only presented upon promotion to CWO.

One would think it might reinforce the position a bit more.

 

[OldSolduer]

It's a shame that the Warrant Scroll is now, unfortunately, only presented upon promotion to CWO.

One would think it might reinforce the position a bit more.

I agree with this in principle. My Warrant is hanging on the wall, right next to a copy of my grandfather's. He was a WO2 in WWI.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

When does one receive her or his warrant?* Isn't that what makes one a warrant officer?

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*Warrant: a formal scroll issued, in Canada, by the MND, recognizing tan individual for their accomplishments and acknowledging them for achieving the highest level of rank for a non-commissioned member (Chapter 8 – Canadian Forces Commission Scripts and Scrolls - Canada.ca)

Only when they become CWO/CPO1. It was thought that giving them to WO/PO1 and MWO/CPO2 would lessen their value.

 

[OldSolduer]

Only when they become CWO/CPO1. It was thought that giving them to WO/PO1 and MWO/CPO2 would lessen their value.

In The olden days there was only WO2 and WO1. The expanse to make it WO, MWO and CWO (and equivalent in RCN Ranks) may have had a hand in that.

 

[Kilted]

Hearing about this at the unit level now. Heard a rumour that Scottish regiments may get it first because we only require a jacket.

 

[Kilted]

Also, I'd be curious to hear how the Rifle Regiments are planning to adjust to this. From what I understand patrols in the QOR are normally Sgt and above, I wonder if we will see that change because of how much they would contrast with every one else.

Also, I know that many regiments will be wearing peaked caps with Service Dress, but will we see the standard beret colour change (with the exception of rifle regiments)?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In The olden days there was only WO2 and WO1. The expanse to make it WO, MWO and CWO (and equivalent in RCN Ranks) may have had a hand in that.

Here is a document the details the decision to drop the Scroll for WO/PO1 and MWO/CPO2 after unification, written by the Assistant Heritage Officer, DHH-NDHQ, Dec 2000.

 

[WLSC]

Also, I'd be curious to hear how the Rifle Regiments are planning to adjust to this. From what I understand patrols in the QOR are normally Sgt and above, I wonder if we will see that change because of how much they would contrast with every one else.

Also, I know that many regiments will be wearing peaked caps with Service Dress, but will we see the standard beret colour change (with the exception of rifle regiments)?

I assume that we will follow what the Brits does for the Rifles regiment. Have heard nothing about changing the rules for the peak caps. Beret would still be there.

 

[Kilted]

Here is a document the details the decision to drop the Scroll for WO/PO1 and MWO/CPO2 after unification, written by the Assistant Heritage Officer, DHH-NDHQ, Dec 2000.

So if they don't receive a warrant, are they actually Warrant Officers? We know they aren't NCO's, so do they just exist in the space between NCO's and Warrant Officers, but no one bothers them because of their length of service, broken bodies, questionable alcohol consumption habits, hearing loss, potentially at least one divorce, and the fact that they actually know what is going on?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

No, we are Warrant/Petty Officer, just without a piece of paper to hang on the wall.

 

[dimsum]

No, we are Warrant/Petty Officer, just without a piece of paper to hang on the wall.

So...Acting / Lacking

 

[Maxman1]

Also, I'd be curious to hear how the Rifle Regiments are planning to adjust to this. From what I understand patrols in the QOR are normally Sgt and above, I wonder if we will see that change because of how much they would contrast with every one else.

Also, I know that many regiments will be wearing peaked caps with Service Dress, but will we see the standard beret colour change (with the exception of rifle regiments)?

I don't think patrols will be changed, just Service Dress/DEUs.

It sounds like the peaked cap will only be blue with red band and piping regardless of corps. Rifle regiments might wear the wedge cap, which is currently an optional headdress in DEUs, instead of a peaked cap.

 

[Kilted]

I don't think patrols will be changed, just Service Dress/DEUs.

It sounds like the peaked cap will only be blue with red band and piping regardless of corps. Rifle regiments might wear the wedge cap, which is currently an optional headdress in DEUs, instead of a peaked cap.

I meant that they would authorize it for all ranks.

 

[dimsum]

It sounds like the peaked cap will only be blue with red band and piping regardless of corps.

I give it a week until regiments change it to look different than others.

 

[Kilted]

I give it a week until regiments change it to look different than others.

I'm sure that regimental associations already have contracts in with suppliers for whichever colours.

 

[Maxman1]

I meant that they would authorize it for all ranks.

Patrols are authorized for all ranks. Same with mess kit. It's usually only Sergeants and up who will bother to find and purchase patrols, unless a unit's standing orders specify who in the unit can and can't wear certain orders of dress.

 

[Good2Golf]

Here is a document the details the decision to drop the Scroll for WO/PO1 and MWO/CPO2 after unification, written by the Assistant Heritage Officer, DHH-NDHQ, Dec 2000.

EITS, thanks for the link to a good read.

That said, I think the leadership of the day missed the mark on the Warrant…

…Commodore R.H. Falls, in a memorandum of 13 November 1969, noted that the new Chief of the Defence Staff, General Allard had “expressed the view that all Warrant Officers in the Canadian Forces should be accorded a special recognition of status.” (R.H. Falls memo, P 5130-8, DPI, 13 November 1969, DHH, HF-D-2-3)( From Minutes of CDS Meeting 1/67 of 24 January 1967). Falls noted that this decision had been taken before the term ‘Warrant Officer’ included so many former ranks and specified the problems that could be caused: “by including all Warrant levels for a Warrant would result in such a proliferation of these documents as to make them almost meaningless as a status symbol. This statement has more impact when it is noted that on 1 Oct. 1969 of a total strength for men of 79,864, there were 1,027 CWOs’, 2,789 MWOs’ and 5,247 WOs’ – 11% (9,063) of the men in the Regular Force would be entitled to a Warrant Scroll. To these must be added members of the RESERVES which as of June, 1969 numbered 214 CWOs’, 665 MWOs’ and 1,258 WOs’ – a total of 2,137.” Falls added that the intention seems to have been to include MWOs, but not all WOs. Shortly after, the decision was made to award the Warrants only to CWOs because, according to R.H. Hunt of the Directorate of Policy Implementation, “it is considered that issuance of Warrants to all men of Warrant Officer rank, of both the Regular and Reserve Forces, would decrease the value of the document and diminish the prestige traditionally associated with its possession.”

Looks like the RCN/Naval preoccupation with status won the day over formalizing/granting WO/MWO/PO1/CPO2s with a representation of the trust the institution placed in them and the responsibilities upon which the military would depend on them to carry out. I can almost hear the harrumphy/pompous tone in Cmdre Falls’ voice in my mind, as I read that recounting of that dit.

Instead it was seen/argued/implemented as a status symbol only for the elite grouping of CWOs/CPO1s…which is disappointing and to a fair degree reinforces some critiques that the CWO/CPO1 branch/rank/cabal(?) have made against them to this day.

 

[torg003]

Just thoght I'd throw this idea out there.
This change over to a new DEU will cost a lot of money so maybe this should be used kind of like the old CF greens and have every person in land based occupations and roles have to wear it. Naval personnel and sea based trades continue to wear the RCN uniform. Dump the air force uniform, we don't actually have an Air Force (except in name), just admit that we have an Army Air Corps and dress them in the khakis as well. Call them the Royal Canadian Flying Corps (which is more accurate) and have the shoulder flash in sky blue with white lettering (maybe include the flying eagle). The only exception would be the naval aviators, who would wear a RCN uniform with a pair of navy aviation wings, and call them the RCN Air Service (the original name for navy aviators).
Obviously I know this will never happen, but would save a lot of money in putting most of the CAF (i.e. Army, Air Corps and all non-naval support services) in the same uniform.