Updated Army Service Dress project

[btrudy]

Yes sorry, brain fart. Typed NCO when I meant NCMs.

Though the square rig looks sharp and definitely more navy-like, it would cost a lot more to go back to that. I don't expect that to happen.

For what it's worth, I definitely get the impression that would be a very unpopular change.

 

[WLSC]

For what it's worth, I definitely get the impression that would be a very unpopular change.

NCM's is from recruits to CPW/CWO. NCO's are from cpl (jr NCO) and Sgt (Sr NCO). That per the book.

 

[RangerRay]

Yes sorry, brain fart. Typed NCO when I meant NCMs.

Though the square rig looks sharp and definitely more navy-like, it would cost a lot more to go back to that. I don't expect that to happen.

Just curious…are we the only navy in the world that doesn’t put their ratings in square rig?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just curious…are we the only navy in the world that doesn’t put their ratings in square rig?

I'm sure we're not, but we're definately in the minority. And the JRs of the RCN are ok with that.

 

[Furniture]

Just curious…are we the only navy in the world that doesn’t put their ratings in square rig?

Not at all, and I am glad we dropped it long ago.

I dislike the idea of people wearing different uniforms based on rank. The rank insignia itself should be enough for people to feel special, they don't need different jackets, or whole uniforms.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not at all, and I am glad we dropped it long ago.

I dislike the idea of people wearing different uniforms based on rank. The rank insignia itself should be enough for people to feel special, they don't need different jackets, or whole uniforms.

Mess Kit enters the chat...

 

[Furniture]

Mess Kit enters the chat...

In fairness, I don't consider mess kit on the same level. Mess kit is the perfect time to peacock.

 

[btrudy]

The entire concept of a seperate set of uniforms only for the "lower deckers" is basically the last bloody thing we need. The whole "Navy is an aristocracy" thing is abhorrent to everything we're trying to achieve with culture change, while putting the Jrs back in Square Rig would only serve to further divide what should be a strong unified fighting team.

In fairness, I don't consider mess kit on the same level. Mess kit is the perfect time to peacock.

Peacocking is fine; peacocking based upon rank less so.

 

[Furniture]

The entire concept of a seperate set of uniforms only for the "lower deckers" is basically the last bloody thing we need. The whole "Navy is an aristocracy" thing is abhorrent to everything we're trying to achieve with culture change, while putting the Jrs back in Square Rig would only serve to further divide what should be a strong unified fighting team.



Peacocking is fine; peacocking based upon rank less so.

We really need a "100%" reaction icon, because I agree 100%.

 

[stoker dave]

The entire concept of a seperate set of uniforms only for the "lower deckers" is basically the last bloody thing we need.

I agree but will point out that in industry there are 'uniforms' that reflect one's rank in the company. I recognize the whole 'tech bro' culture is an outlier to this and of course I am painting with a broad brush but:

• The workers typically wear jeans or construction type clothing.
• Technical staff and junior engineers wear chinos and casual shirts
• Senior managers and anyone with 'president' as part of their title wears dress pants and a dress shirt. Ties have mostly disappeared.

My view from many decades working with very large engineering / consulting / construction companies.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The entire concept of a seperate set of uniforms only for the "lower deckers" is basically the last bloody thing we need. The whole "Navy is an aristocracy" thing is abhorrent to everything we're trying to achieve with culture change, while putting the Jrs back in Square Rig would only serve to further divide what should be a strong unified fighting team.

Remember why distinguishing uniforms were developed in the first place. In the fog of war, even in the age of sail, you needed to see who was who. Not merely who was friend or foe, but who was in charge and who had the answers when things were FUBAR. The fact that even the most egalitarian of militaries maintain distinctive dress between ranks is an indication of rank (even in dress) matters, just as much as the rank itself.

Peacocking is fine; peacocking based upon rank less so.

My dress has been impeccable and well maintained since before I took the King's Shilling. Why? It was drilled into me as a child (who was poor as fuck) that people judge you first on your appearance, then your performance. Is it right? No. Is it the way things are? Yes.

The clothes make the man after all. When your position and status demand a higher standard of dress, you lose credibility if you look like a slob to your superiors, peers, and even to your subordinates.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Square rig will get you laid more often than NCD's when ashore. One of the perks of being in a Highland Regt is going to the bar in a Kilt, same idea.

 

[WLSC]

Remember why distinguishing uniforms were developed in the first place. In the fog of war, even in the age of sail, you needed to see who was who. Not merely who was friend or foe, but who was in charge and who had the answers when things were FUBAR. The fact that even the most egalitarian of militaries maintain distinctive dress between ranks is an indication of rank (even in dress) matters, just as much as the rank itself.

My dress has been impeccable and well maintained since before I took the King's Shilling. Why? It was drilled into me as a child (who was poor as fuck) that people judge you first on your appearance, then your performance. Is it right? No. Is it the way things are? Yes.

The clothes make the man after all. When your position and status demand a higher standard of dress, you lose credibility if you look like a slob to your superiors, peers, and even to your subordinates.

I agree with all you said. I will had that that mindset should be on all rank and inforced by all rank. Which is not. Have you seen that RCAF 2lt that went on social media with her hair everywhere except under her beret? It went on line but no one told her prior to look at her dress. That's what kill your mindset.

On the other hand, an old RSM of mind used to say that if you take a platoon in a field shower, you should be able to see who's an NCO and who's not without their uniform only by the way they behave. What you say is all about lead by exemple leadership.

 

[Furniture]

Remember why distinguishing uniforms were developed in the first place. In the fog of war, even in the age of sail, you needed to see who was who. Not merely who was friend or foe, but who was in charge and who had the answers when things were FUBAR. The fact that even the most egalitarian of militaries maintain distinctive dress between ranks is an indication of rank (even in dress) matters, just as much as the rank itself.

Except that we all wear the same uniforms in the heat of battle these days, so that argument for different patterns of uniforms for ranks doesn't hold up. It's a hold over from the old class based system, that has stuck around because of tradition.

If a sailor can't tell the difference between a CPO 1 and a Cdr on parade, because their jackets have the same cut and number of buttons, that sailor has bigger problems.

The clothes make the man after all. When your position and status demand a higher standard of dress, you lose credibility if you look like a slob to your superiors, peers, and even to your subordinates.

So wear your uniform, with it's badges and buttons well... You don't need an entirely different uniform compared to your troops to not be a slob.

 

[OldSolduer]

Not all leaders have rank.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Except that we all wear the same uniforms in the heat of battle these days, so that argument for different patterns of uniforms for ranks doesn't hold up. It's a hold over from the old class based system, that has stuck around because of tradition.

Same can be said of drill, messing by rank, rum, sodomy, and the lash... we keep certain things that retain value and abandon those that don't. One's opinion of value is dictated by their experience and the norms within that experience was formed.

Tradition and Progress have been uneasy dance partners for millenia.

If a sailor can't tell the difference between a CPO 1 and a Cdr on parade, because their jackets have the same cut and number of buttons, that sailor has bigger problems.

I can agree, however, the parade square is less about function and more about pageantry. To "peacock" to use another term from earlier in the thread.

The Coldstream Guards on Horse Guard's Parade look entirely different from the ones that patrolled Lashka Ghar. Both require ferocity and professionalism, however, Joe Q Public isn't on patrol with them. They do, however, see Scarlets and Bearskins ever year on the BBC looking like a crew of folks that will close with and destroy the enemy with the same level of precision and ferocity the show on parade.

So wear your uniform, with it's badges and buttons well... You don't need an entirely different uniform compared to your troops to not be a slob.

This I will agree with in principle. Then again, it is wholly dependent on time and place.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not at all, and I am glad we dropped it long ago.

I dislike the idea of people wearing different uniforms based on rank. The rank insignia itself should be enough for people to feel special, they don't need different jackets, or whole uniforms

Ascots for Snr Officers and GOFO perhaps?

The clothes make the man after all. When your position and status demand a higher standard of dress, you lose credibility if you look like a slob to your superiors, peers, and even to your subordinates.

My GBA+ wrong-o-meter just pegged.

 

[Furniture]

Same can be said of drill, messing by rank, rum, sodomy, and the lash... we keep certain things that retain value and abandon those that don't. One's opinion of value is dictated by their experience and the norms within that experience was formed.

Drill is maintained for parades, but parades have been cut down recently. There is little actual value in "marching up and down the square", but there is still some, so we keep some of it. Messing by rank makes sense in places where the mess is the also the living space. It gives the troops time away from the bosses, and bosses time away from the troops. Different standards of comfort and service in different messes is a leftover from the class system, and should disappear. eg. Wardroom, vs. C&POs vs, Jr. Ranks.

I suspect the "experience' that determines that Officers and Snr NCMs get better conditions than troops comes down mostly to "RHIP".

I can agree, however, the parade square is less about function and more about pageantry. To "peacock" to use another term from earlier in the thread.

The Coldstream Guards on Horse Guard's Parade look entirely different from the ones that patrolled Lashka Ghar. Both require ferocity and professionalism, however, Joe Q Public isn't on patrol with them. They do, however, see Scarlets and Bearskins ever year on the BBC looking like a crew of folks that will close with and destroy the enemy with the same level of precision and ferocity the show on parade.

Note that the officers and troops both wear the same pattern of uniform, just with different accessories. That was the point I was trying to make earlier... Just looking at those pictures I can pick out the officers vs. the enlisted. There is no need for the troops to have a uniform that is an entirely different pattern, just so the officers and Snr NCMs feel more special.



In this picture it's not hard to spot the officer, vs the NCMs, despite the fact the cut and number of buttons on the uniform are the same.

The only people asking for the RCN to go back to a square rig are people that will not have to wear it. I'm not generous enough to believe it's entirely about "tradition", and not about being distinct and more special.

This I will agree with in principle. Then again, it is wholly dependent on time and place.

100%, everything in life comes down to time and place.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If I was young again and going navy, damm right I would want Square Rig for a Dress uniform. I wore it in Cadets back in the day. Certainly better than the suit today. You could simplify a bit to make it easier to maintain.

 

[daftandbarmy]

My GBA+ wrong-o-meter just pegged.