Updated Army Service Dress project

[Eye In The Sky]

I’d love to see that 4 million go into operational kit. If we don’t have the right operational kit, as in operational dress, good field kit/kit needed at the individual level on ships and aircraft, then to me there’s no defending this obsession we have with our dress uniform stuff.

That’s me as a serving member.

As a taxpayer, I don’t subscribe to the “only 4 million dollars” stuff with the amount of debt this country has drowned itself in and the many many better way that money could be to put to use to help Canadians. Dress uniforms don’t help Canadians.

We have to stop justifying waste.

 

[quadrapiper]

I’d love to see that 4 million go into operational kit. If we don’t have the right operational kit, as in operational dress, good field kit/kit needed at the individual level on ships and aircraft, then to me there’s no defending this obsession we have with our dress uniform stuff.

That’s me as a serving member.

As a taxpayer, I don’t subscribe to the “only 4 million dollars” stuff with the amount of debt this country has drowned itself in and the many many better way that money could be to put to use to help Canadians. Dress uniforms don’t help Canadians.

We have to stop justifying waste.

Short of ditching 3s entirely, and leaving the bands, guards, colour parties, and other ceremonial details to either "best 5s" or full/patrol dress, a project that might make 3s more attractive to wear, plus providing a really good excuse to order everyone not actively doing grubby work or training into 3s, and thus save wear and tear on the arse and elbows of 5s, should prevent waste.

 

[dimsum]

I’d love to see that 4 million go into operational kit. If we don’t have the right operational kit, as in operational dress, good field kit/kit needed at the individual level on ships and aircraft, then to me there’s no defending this obsession we have with our dress uniform stuff.

That’s me as a serving member.

As a taxpayer, I don’t subscribe to the “only 4 million dollars” stuff with the amount of debt this country has drowned itself in and the many many better way that money could be to put to use to help Canadians. Dress uniforms don’t help Canadians.

We have to stop justifying waste.

But let’s be serious - 4 mil is a drop in the bucket for budget.

We want to save money that doesn’t really help Canadians? Get rid of the Snowbirds, Skyhawks, and HMCS Oriole. Free up their crews, techs, etc for other fleets.

Folks in office settings do not need 4 sets of flight suits and 3 sets of combats/NCDs, plus the boots, winter gear, etc. They can keep 2 sets of uniforms (and if aircrew, none of their combats) and none of the gear that they won’t use, unless they’re at some high-readiness deployment unit.

That should free up some stuff.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’d love to see that 4 million go into operational kit. If we don’t have the right operational kit, as in operational dress, good field kit/kit needed at the individual level on ships and aircraft, then to me there’s no defending this obsession we have with our dress uniform stuff.

That’s me as a serving member.

As a taxpayer, I don’t subscribe to the “only 4 million dollars” stuff with the amount of debt this country has drowned itself in and the many many better way that money could be to put to use to help Canadians. Dress uniforms don’t help Canadians.

We have to stop justifying waste.

Whatever happens we need to reintroduce and issue the Commando Toque or 'Cap Comforter' as it is formally known, as seen here in a modern format on OP REASSURANCE ...

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I’d love to see that 4 million go into operational kit. If we don’t have the right operational kit, as in operational dress, good field kit/kit needed at the individual level on ships and aircraft, then to me there’s no defending this obsession we have with our dress uniform stuff.
That’s me as a serving member.

There are BILLIONS directed to operational kit and clothing at the moment. It's the time it takes getting those billions converted into kit and eqpt that has been the ass pain. SOCEM is in full roll. Operational Clothing Online is forthcoming. I understand we need it yesterday, but it's in the works and will be on the shelves in Clothing Stores soon. Revamping the CA Dress uniform is a quick and easy slam dunk amendment to the standing offer with Logistik Unicorps.

We have priorities and we have rainy day tasks. Buttons and Bows are quick easy projects that fix problems that , as much as some CAF members bitch about, are still deemed a requirement by those who dictate where the money goes.

As a taxpayer, I don’t subscribe to the “only 4 million dollars” stuff with the amount of debt this country has drowned itself in and the many many better way that money could be to put to use to help Canadians. Dress uniforms don’t help Canadians.

Cool. Write a letter to your MP and initiate change that way. I have no more pull in what the CAF spends its money on than the next troop. In the mean time, ask them about the CBC still being funded or the Green Renovation Tax Credit.

We have to stop justifying waste.

I will give you the bolded text. I agree that we need to do better with what we have. Our department is one of the better ones in the GoC for dollar value to Canadians. I would argue we in the CAF have a confirmation bias in that regard.

 

[McG]

The new uniform project still has a PM, a PD, a procurement officer, and probably a few other staff. There are BNs and briefings tacking Col & GOFO level time as well. So there is an opportunity cost in effort that does more to impede larger projects than does the opportunity cost of dollars.

We could have gotten a better fitting uniform at the LCMM level alone.

That being said, I don’t think anyone will miss the mint green shirts.

 

[Happy Guy]

Like I have written before I sincerely hope that ADM(MAT) and DLR engages a professional designer to help the Army. The replacement DEU has to served a wide variety of functions from ceremony to office work, which have differing and competing needs. There is the environment too, outdoor seasonal and indoor office work. Is it the intend to make the replacement DEU sort of a work dress for the office? Will the ceremonial uniform be filled with all sorts of insignia and devices? Summer uniform? Winter uniform? How will we peacock the uniform for ceremonial and office work? Stable belts? Lanyards? Sam Browne belts? Pant belts? Red Sashes? Colour shoes? Boots? Overcoat? Raincoat? Head dress - toques, Turbans, Hijabs? Socks? Slouch hats like the Australian Army? Park ranger hats like the NZ Army? Pith helmets for ceremonial purposes? Do we change the colour of the green berets? Hand bags? Sweaters? CANEX jacket requirement? Colour of gloves? Ceremonial webbing? Individual Regimental, Corps requirements? Riding boots jodhpurs for the cavalry regiments? Who pays for the peacock items to satisfy Regiment and Corps identities? Is there a need to change colour(s) of insignia and devices because we changed the uniform? Is there a need to change the size of the insignia and devices because we changed the uniform? Will there be differences between men and women's uniforms - pocket placement and such? Is there a need to consider the Royals / GG - when a Royal wears the uniform are there any special considerations? The number of uniform sizing options?

Should patrol blues become an issued dress uniform to fulfil the full ceremonial function?

Should we look at our British, Australian, New Zealand, American and other Asian, European partners for inspiration? How Canadian should the uniform be and not just a copy of the ABCNZ uniforms?

In all seriousness, what I'm trying to say is that the Army must ask their constituents what they want, tabulate it, confirm what this uniform must do and get a professional designer to determine how to do this. Let us do this right this time and make a uniform that is smart, comfortable and able to do the job that the Army wants it to do. Make a uniform that we are proud of and want to wear while on parade, office work and walking out in public. For god's sake please, please don't go full peacock! This is what patrol blues are for.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Like I have written before I sincerely hope that ADM(MAT) and DLR engages a professional designer to help the Army. The replacement DEU has to served a wide variety of functions from ceremony to office work, which have differing and competing needs. There is the environment too, outdoor seasonal and indoor office work. Is it the intend to make the replacement DEU sort of a work dress for the office? Will the ceremonial uniform be filled with all sorts of insignia and devices? Summer uniform? Winter uniform? How will we peacock the uniform for ceremonial and office work? Stable belts? Lanyards? Sam Browne belts? Pant belts? Red Sashes? Colour shoes? Boots? Overcoat? Raincoat? Head dress - toques, Turbans, Hijabs? Socks? Slouch hats like the Australian Army? Park ranger hats like the NZ Army? Pith helmets for ceremonial purposes? Do we change the colour of the green berets? Hand bags? Sweaters? CANEX jacket requirement? Colour of gloves? Ceremonial webbing? Individual Regimental, Corps requirements? Riding boots jodhpurs for the cavalry regiments? Who pays for the peacock items to satisfy Regiment and Corps identities? Is there a need to change colour(s) of insignia and devices because we changed the uniform? Is there a need to change the size of the insignia and devices because we changed the uniform? Will there be differences between men and women's uniforms - pocket placement and such? Is there a need to consider the Royals / GG - when a Royal wears the uniform are there any special considerations? The number of uniform sizing options?

Should patrol blues become an issued dress uniform to fulfil the full ceremonial function?

Should we look at our British, Australian, New Zealand, American and other Asian, European partners for inspiration? How Canadian should the uniform be and not just a copy of the ABCNZ uniforms?

In all seriousness, what I'm trying to say is that the Army must ask their constituents what they want, tabulate it, confirm what this uniform must do and get a professional designer to determine how to do this. Let us do this right this time and make a uniform that is smart, comfortable and able to do the job that the Army wants it to do. Make a uniform that we are proud of and want to wear while on parade, office work and walking out in public. For god's sake please, please don't go full peacock! This is what patrol blues are for.

Meanwhile, any 'professional design consultants' who might be unforttunate enough to be approached by the CAF be like...

 

[FSTO]

Get rid of the Snowbirds, Skyhawks, and HMCS Oriole.

 

[Rifleman62]

Not in CF ballpark, get rid of boring O'Canada, replace with runner up The Maple Leaf Forever.

 

[FSTO]

Not in CF ballpark, get rid of boring O'Canada, replace with runner up The Maple Leaf Forever.

The opening verse shouldn't cause any issues right?

In Days of yore,
From Britain's shore
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain.

 

[QV]

Whatever happens we need to reintroduce and issue the Commando Toque or 'Cap Comforter' as it is formally known, as seen here in a modern format on OP REASSURANCE ...


View attachment 76456

In addition I'll never give up my American jacket liner.

 

[JLB50]

The opening verse shouldn't cause any issues right?

In Days of yore,
From Britain's shore
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain.

 

[JLB50]

“O Canada! Our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command”…was there a problem here?

“In all of us Command”??? Hmmm.

 

[Rifleman62]

How many times has O'Canada been "amended"?

 

[dimsum]

Not in CF ballpark, get rid of boring O'Canada, replace with runner up The Maple Leaf Forever.

I can’t remember who said this, but the nations with stirring national anthems are also those who generally got nationhood via violent revolution.

US, France, PRC, etc.

 

[JLB50]

How many times has O'Canada been "amended"?

Not sure. I always l preferred the meolody of the Maple Leaf Forever. I can understand changing the lyrics, but getting rid of the melody as well is kind of like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[torg003]

As the US anthem was mentioned, "The Star Spangled Banner" was written about the bombardment of Baltimore during the War of 1812, strangely enough, a war they lost. (They don't think so).
I have no problem with the Canadian national anthem BTW.
Just realized this is in a thread about uniforms. Wow, things seem to get off the rails too easily on this site.

So back on topic, I have nothing against the Army getting rid of the old "CF greens" and updating the Army uniform.

 

[daftandbarmy]

“O Canada! Our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons of us command”…was there a problem here?

“In all of us Command”??? Hmmm.

There, amended that for you

 

[JLB50]

The Star Spangled Banner is actually quite an old melody that pre-dates Francis Scott Key’s lyrics by quite a few years if memory serves me correctly. Prior to Key’s version it had been an English beer drinking song. Regardless, it’s a notoriously difficult song to sing. Speaking of drinking songs, Yankee Doodle was originally an English pub song written to poke fun at the American upstarts until the Americans proudly adopted it as their own.