Untrained BMQ Candidate Alleges Abuse by Directing Staff Sergeant

[X Royal]

As a further statement when I joined it was $500 a month before deductions.
I was making $650 a month in a lower level factory type job. Not uncommon in my area.
I and many made sacrifices to join.
On top of that some are asking someone in an equivalent position to pay up front to qualify for a position that may or may not be offered??
Sure would limit your applicants and only make it more viable to those who already have financial backing and/or savings.
I feel we want the best recruits not just those who can afford to be the best choices.

 

[X Royal]

Young High School graduates can fill both those criteria.  They are educated, and have as they are just entering the work force, any reasonable wage is welcome income.  As they will have all their basics covered; housing, food, clothing, etc. they would be facing no real financial hardships.

So George your suggesting we give preference for recruiting those people who are only "Young High School graduates".
First off it wouldn't meet any legal challenge and secondly would limit the Forces from many potential great recruits.
BTW: When I joined I was a recent High School graduate. Not completely common but also far from unheard of at the time.

 

[George Wallace]

So George your suggesting we give preference for recruiting those people who are only "Young High School graduates".
First off it wouldn't meet any legal challenge and secondly would limit the Forces from many potential great recruits.
BTW: When I joined I was a recent High School graduate. Not completely common but also far from unheard of at the time.

No, I am not, but that is the largest target audience.

 

[X Royal]

No, I am not, but that is the largest target audience.

Agreed it is a large target group but to set up any system that would put up barriers to bring in new members from out side this group could be very well counterproductive.
Any married person would be less likely to apply.
Also anyone that is a older with responsibilities may not apply.
And many new high school graduates may not be the best recruits due to lack of maturity and experiences.
Some have never drifted far from mommy's teat.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Agreed it is a large target group but to set up any system that would put up barriers to bring in new members from out side this group could be very well counterproductive.
Any married person would be less likely to apply.
Also anyone that is a older with responsibilities may not apply.
And many new high school graduates may not be the best recruits due to lack of maturity and experiences.
Some have never drifted far from mommy's teat.

The British Army, and Royal Marines, run short selection courses for potential recruits to see if they like the military, and vice versa. If we don't already, we should copy this program.

Here's a link to a documentary being aired in the UK right now about the Parachute Regiment's version. It makes sure the 'numptees' don't get through:

http://bcove.me/ws8d56lh

 

[X Royal]

The British Army, and Royal Marines, run short selection courses for potential recruits to see if they like the military, and vice versa. If we don't already, we should copy this program.

No we don't and I don't ever see it happening. I watched the video. It was basically a physical fitness assessment.
Each unit running their own assessments due to the vast size of the country would either limit those who could attend or would depend on those who could afford to attend. I can't see our recruiting system floating the bill to send people across the country for a 3 day assessment of each regiment applied for.
That being said this thread sure has went off line in respect to the original topic and has spun off to a recruiting changes theme.

 

[vonGarvin]

I can't see our recruiting system floating the bill to send people across the country for a 3 day assessment of each regiment applied for.

If it were shown to save on flying fat crybabies to Saint-Jean who then draw rations, quarters and a salary for months or years on end, I could see it happening.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If it were shown to save on flying fat crybabies to Saint-Jean who then draw rations, quarters and a salary for months or years on end, I could see it happening.

I know a NCO training recruits at St Jean right now. He can't believe how 'weak' the recruits are in general these days: both physically and character-wise, and estimated at least 20-30% shouldn't even be there. He trembles at the thought of what will happen when they reach their units. I ran the 'Pre-course cull' idea by him and he thought it was a great idea.

I'm putting that in my resume right now  8)

 

[Sig_Des]

I know a NCO training recruits at St Jean right now. He can't believe how 'weak' the recruits are in general these days: both physically and character-wise, and estimated at least 20-30% shouldn't even be there. He trembles at the thought of what will happen when they reach their units. I ran the 'Pre-course cull' idea by him and he thought it was a great idea.

I'm putting that in my resume right now  8)

I've heard the same thing. And the fact that staff who want to do anything about it are cut off at the knees by the school administration/leadership.

On a side note, on the idea of pre-culling. It's not necessarily required to bring people to a central location for unit run screening. What about something similar to the USMC's Delayed Entry Program?

http://www.dvidshub.net/news/116235/marine-recruiters-utilize-delayed-entry-program-reduce-attrition#.VEeWwqb3bCR

 

[X Royal]

It's not necessarily required to bring people to a central location for unit run screening. What about something similar to the USMC's Delayed Entry Program?

Another option I don't see working in Canada.
The problem with this program is that the potential recruit has to report to a central area (recruiting center?) weekly or monthly for physical training & mentoring. May work for some who live near the recruiting center but not practical for those who live a great distance from the center.
What if these sessions conflict with the recruits work?
The thing with Canada compared to these other places is our population density is far lower and spread out.
If the physical fitness of recruits is a problem a simple fitness test ran through the recruiting center can solve the problem.
Pass the test and the potential recruit moves on in the process. Fail test and they have to retest and pass before moving on.
Problem with this is it's still an added cost to the recruiting system.
It very well be money well spent but convincing the bean counters may be the biggest problem.

 

[MAJONES]

Nope.  300,00 applicants per year for an annual output of less than 5K Reg F and slightly more than 5K Reserves.

Of which 275000 want to be pilots, 20000 want to be MPs, and 4000 want to be RMS Clerks.  I know this because I spent enough time wading through the influx.

 

[cryco]

really?  I know you're probably ball parking, but do most really want to be pilots or mp? How small a percentage  are the combat arms applicants?

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I know a NCO training recruits at St Jean right now. He can't believe how 'weak' the recruits are in general these days: both physically and character-wise, and estimated at least 20-30% shouldn't even be there. He trembles at the thought of what will happen when they reach their units.

I've heard similar reports about new British Army recruits.

 

[expwor]

I just wonder, and thinking out loud here, but if the state of affairs of recruits is due to the long time it takes processing an application from start to arrival at St Jean.  Maybe many of the better applicants have found other employment during the time it takes to process their CF application
I know when applying for the Militia back in the '70s the hiring for SRTP (Summer Recruit Training Program) took place end of May/June where we had our aptitude test/interview/PT test and swearing in.
Recruit training started in July
I also noticed in Corrections when I joined, my application and interview was in January and come April I was on CORP (Corrections equivalent of basic training) Training.  But now the application process is so long that I've observed a lot of the new Correctional Officers starting have more a sense of entitlement but don't want to do the job.  Probably the good applicants found other employment while waiting for their application to be processed
Just a thought

Tom

 

[Nudibranch]

I know a NCO training recruits at St Jean right now. He can't believe how 'weak' the recruits are in general these days: both physically and character-wise, and estimated at least 20-30% shouldn't even be there. He trembles at the thought of what will happen when they reach their units. I ran the 'Pre-course cull' idea by him and he thought it was a great idea.

I'm putting that in my resume right now  8)

Military population reflects the Canadian population in terms of overall fitness, obesity, and makes sense, strength of character. The first two are attested by tools like the HLIS surveys; with the exception of specific units (combat arms, who do regular unit PT etc) the CAF population is sedentary and overweight. CAF medical system pays for bariatric surgery, for ex. We have no body fat standards like the US, and when was the last time anyone saw a physically unfit soldier administratively released for that reason?

So it makes sense that in keeping with that, the "character weakness" is also on the increase. Again, there will be some trades/units where those people won't make it, but many in which they will.

 

[DAA]

I know a NCO training recruits at St Jean right now. He can't believe how 'weak' the recruits are in general these days: both physically and character-wise, and estimated at least 20-30% shouldn't even be there. He trembles at the thought of what will happen when they reach their units. I ran the 'Pre-course cull' idea by him and he thought it was a great idea.

It's funny how the wheel goes round and lands on something different.  I remember back in the 80's when they "cut" the medical screenings back to cursory exams only and then visiting CFRS Cornwallis on an RTV and being blasted by the Instructors for all the "medical" issues with the recruits.

The onus is now on the applicants.  Your joining the military, you need to be "reasonably fit" before you arrive.  If they don't understand that, show them the door.....

 

[George Wallace]

It's funny how the wheel goes round and lands on something different.  I remember back in the 80's when they "cut" the medical screenings back to cursory exams only and then visiting CFRS Cornwallis on an RTV and being blasted by the Instructors for all the "medical" issues with the recruits.

The onus is now on the applicants.  Your joining the military, you need to be "reasonably fit" before you arrive.  If they don't understand that, show them the door.....

I read your post and agree.  Then I read this and your words came to mind again: http://army.ca/forums/threads/116686/post-1334044.html#msg1334044

 

[PhoenixWright]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1634446/canadian-forces-training-instructor-now-facing-assault-charges-for-mistreating-military-recruits/

Well, of course, we can't know the truth until after the courts have made their verdict, but I am glad to see Pte Robichaud getting some justice after years of trying to sweep him under the rug. Took alot of courage to stand up for what was right and try to get a vile person who would treat new recruits in that fashion punished. I'd be happy to call that man a veteran any day, It's a shame his chances of joining were scuttled.

 

[George Wallace]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1634446/canadian-forces-training-instructor-now-facing-assault-charges-for-mistreating-military-recruits/

Well, of course, we can't know the truth until after the courts have made their verdict, but I am glad to see Pte Robichaud getting some justice after years of trying to sweep him under the rug. Took alot of courage to stand up for what was right and try to get a vile person who would treat new recruits in that fashion punished. I'd be happy to call that man a veteran any day, It's a shame his chances of joining were scuttled.

It is obvious that you have already passed judgement.

If you think not, then re-read what you posted.

 

[PhoenixWright]

Ah, you are correct. So be it. I guess that just makes me more like everyone else in this thread, passing judgement on someone without waiting for official judgement. I just happen to be on the other side.