Untrained BMQ Candidate Alleges Abuse by Directing Staff Sergeant

[Eye In The Sky]

Learn something new everyday.  The briefings we went to as a bullpen with the BSurg were at the Crse O/Crse WO level and down so...in that context I guess it was correct 'as it applied to us'.  I (SNCO) didn't have the authority to tell Bloggins to run if his chit said "no running".

But, back on track...

 

[vincent.escanlar]

This CANFORGEN was one of the references on my CDU team's regular visits with units, and helped to reinforce dialogue between Medical (ie the Care Delivery Unit team) and the unit with regards to MELs - "any questions, please call us directly as it's quicker and more useful than sending the mbr back to Sick Parade". Being accessible to the units helped us provide clearer and more relevant MELs for the mbr's and the unit's needs.

CANFORGEN 128/03 ADMHRMIL 061 241824Z OCT 03

(Edited to add reference link and brevity)

 

[Baz]

And I too have learned something today... it seems the CDS has indicated it does not fall under Administrative Control and that it is specifically dealt with.

So much for Commander's being allowed to assume risk in order to accomplish the mission... it would be nice if someone published it in a current Command and Control document instead of an eleven year old CANFORGEN; although it may well be in the documents I mentioned as I don't have them for reference.

Rant on: I'm curious as to how Commander's can be held responsible to complete the mission when more and more of their ability to assume risk is being taken from them; rant off.

In any case, the "Drill Sgt" in question would not have the authority; but the more important question is whether he overstepped his lanes, or the member in question misrepresented the situation.  Which I don't have an insight on...

 

[cryco]

As a civie, I have a question for you following this discussion:
If the recruit/soldier or anyone else that is injured is ordered to continue physical training (not combat situation) which would exacerbate the injury and risk serious or long term damage, can the subordinate simply refuse to participate?
I would rather suffer a reprimand than risk a tear to a ligament or tendon or whatever else it may be.

 

[Baz]

Rant on: I'm curious as to how Commander's can be held responsible to complete the mission when more and more of their ability to assume risk is being taken from them; rant off

This really belongs in a separate thread, and probably in a separate area...

In order to explain my rant, I propose and open for discussion the following thought experiment, albeit unlikely, with the statement that I believe the rules have to allow for the worst case, which is for us failure in combat.

We find ourselves in open combat with a near peer force.  A reinforced Joint unit is indepently deployed and ordered to hold a strategically vital strongpoint.  That unit is "infected" with a dibilitating disease, for which the only real cure is bed rest.  Therefore, the medical odficer orders same for all those affected.  By doing so, the unit is no longer capable of completing its mission.  Therefore, the CO is faced with two conflicting orders, the one from the CDS saying he has no option than to follow the MOs direction, and his order to hold, which implicitly tells him to accept a lot of risk.  What does he do?

Again, highly unlikely, but I think illustrates my point.

 

[ModlrMike]

This CANFORGEN was one of the references on my CDU team's regular visits with units, and helped to reinforce dialogue between Medical (ie the Care Delivery Unit team) and the unit with regards to MELs - "any questions, please call us directly as it's quicker and more useful than sending the mbr back to Sick Parade". Being accessible to the units helped us provide clearer and more relevant MELs for the mbr's and the unit's needs.

CANFORGEN 128/03 ADMHRMIL 061 241824Z OCT 03

That's why I said historically. I sensed there had been a change, but I've been out the the mainstream for so long I couldn't remember the exact reference.

 

[ballz]

This highlighted part scares me:

This part scares me because I have seen this happen in the past both inside the training system and operationally.  I understand we as leaders may have a feeling a troop is malingering but we cannot decide that if the medical system has endorsed the validity of the injury/sickness and prescribed a resolution for it.

Many leaders don't get that when a sick chit is prescribed it is hard stone gospel and to be obeyed to a T.  Those of us non-medical professionals have neither the training nor the knowledge necessary to countermand a diagnosis medical employment limitation.

I hope this allegation is not true, but it would not surprise me if it was and that right there is the trump card in the whole article.

Just me nitpicking... Just because the medical staff have ordered MELs does not mean they have provided a resolution or a diagnosis. In my experience as both a patient and in a command role, they've usually just provided ibuprofen and/or foot powder along with the MEL chit. But there is another thread on that discussion...

 

[Tibbson]

Just me nitpicking... Just because the medical staff have ordered MELs does not mean they have provided a resolution or a diagnosis. In my experience as both a patient and in a command role, they've usually just provided ibuprofen and/or foot powder along with the MEL chit. But there is another thread on that discussion...

Don't forget the Cipicol.  lol  The cure for whatever ails ya.

 

[OldSolduer]

Don't forget the Cipicol.  lol  The cure for whatever ails ya.

It's Cepacol......

 

[Jed]

It's Cepacol......

.. Coughs, Colds, Sore Holes, Pimples on your Ding Dong ... Cepacol

 

[dapaterson]

Last year I had a 53 year old on my Infantry Unit run BMQ.  She passed, barely, but has already released.  A huge waste of my staffs time.

And how many 18 year olds released?  And how many 18 year olds didn't release, but just stopped showing up (creating even more admin burden)?

Don't confuse anecdotes with statistically significant moments.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Hmmm.  03 CANFORGEN.  Nice.

I'm still happy with Comd common sense, and in no way, as a commander, feeling bound by the advice of yet another specialist, albeit a Doctor.

 

[Haggis]

As a civie, I have a question for you following this discussion:
If the recruit/soldier or anyone else that is injured is ordered to continue physical training (not combat situation) which would exacerbate the injury and risk serious or long term damage, can the subordinate simply refuse to participate?

If that soldier was treated for an injury and given specific instructions, in writing, by the medical staff (i.e. no running for 14 days) then yes, s/he can refuse.

 

[Harris]

And how many 18 year olds released?  And how many 18 year olds didn't release, but just stopped showing up (creating even more admin burden)?

Don't confuse anecdotes with statistically significant moments.

Agreed, except that since she was going the Officer route, even if she did manage to get qualified (only has limited time over the sumer avail), I would get no significant work out of her as an Infantry Pl Commander, and likely none at any higher rank/posn.  At least I or the CF, if they OT/CT/trans will likely get some work back from the 18 year old and there is the likelihood they will progress through the ranks.

 

[Monsoon]

Hmmm.  03 CANFORGEN.  Nice.

I'm still happy with Comd common sense, and in no way, as a commander, feeling bound by the advice of yet another specialist, albeit a Doctor.

Not just an 03 CANFORGEN, a 03 CANFORGEN entirely predicated on ad hoc comments made by a CDS in 1998 during a weekly staff meeting with uncirculated minutes, and which promises amplification in a subsequent publication that was never forthcoming. I'm with you.

 

[Gunner98]

Indeed, if we recruit intelligently, we may be faced with a conundrum - what is the appropriate entry rank for an RCMP Sgt with 15 years experience, coming over as an MPO?  Should she perhaps be made a Major and employed in a position to leverage her knowledge and skills, or should we stick her in Dundurn as a Lt as the head of the detachment there?

Using your line of logic where should a Maj Arty Officer with several operational tours go in the RCMP to leverage his skills - through Recruit Training and become a Constable or a Sgt?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hmmm.  03 CANFORGEN.  Nice.

I'm still happy with Comd common sense, and in no way, as a commander, feeling bound by the advice of yet another specialist, albeit a Doctor.

Not just an 03 CANFORGEN, a 03 CANFORGEN entirely predicated on ad hoc comments made by a CDS in 1998 during a weekly staff meeting with uncirculated minutes, and which promises amplification in a subsequent publication that was never forthcoming. I'm with you.

A CANFORGEN with direction by the CDS that hasn't been cancelled or superseded is still direction that is in effect and lawful, is it not?

Odd to see comments that boil down to "I don't care what the CDS said/says.  I'll do what I see fit".  Seems to go against this to me. 

Not flinging shit, but I suspect if you issued directives to your subordinates, you'd expect them followed.

:2c:

 

[Baz]

A CANFORGEN with direction by the CDS that hasn't been cancelled or superseded is still direction that is in effect and lawful, is it not?

To me it constitutes a lawful order, and not be disobeyed unless in conflict with another lawful order.

To be clear, I think its a logical order for the majority of the time.  My concern is there is no caveat for special circumstances.

As you know, very near the front of the CF Flying Orders are the occasions you can break them, for good reason.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Copy that.

Just for clarity sake, my posts are in the context of "ops normal/day-to-day" stuff, similar to the thread topic. 

Example - Sgt Bloggins, a Widget Tech, is medically excused from duty with bedrest X 2 days by the MO.  However, the Widget DA muster is scheduled for the next day and needs to be completed for the BOI for the unit change of command.  Does Sgt Bloggins CO or Base/Wing Commander have the authority to order him/her to work to complete the DA verification?  Example may not be perfect (I don't know DA musters are required for change of command BOIs), but you get the idea.

Is the bedrest "advice" or a "shall happen"?  There seems to be some varying thoughts, and from some people with more rank and TI than I have.  I was always briefed "you cannot ignore chits/MELs, they shall be adhered to".

 

[Halifax Tar]

Copy that.

Just for clarity sake, my posts are in the context of "ops normal/day-to-day" stuff, similar to the thread topic. 

Example - Sgt Bloggins, a Widget Tech, is medically excused from duty with bedrest X 2 days by the MO.  However, the Widget DA muster is scheduled for the next day and needs to be completed for the BOI for the unit change of command.  Does Sgt Bloggins CO or Base/Wing Commander have the authority to order him/her to work to complete the DA verification?  Example may not be perfect (I don't know DA musters are required for change of command BOIs), but you get the idea.

Is the bedrest "advice" or a "shall happen"?  There seems to be some varying thoughts, and from some people with more rank and TI than I have.  I was always briefed "you cannot ignore chits/MELs, they shall be adhered to".

DAs don't exist anymore EITS its now a SLOC/SCA ;D Just poking you, I think we all know what you meant.  And yes a SLOC/SCA verification is required for a Change of Command BOI.

I will tell you I don't countermand a sick chit.  I am a PO2 Sup Tech who has barely passed first aid trg, I am no SME on anything medical.  If pers on this forum feel they have the where with all and or education to do so then go ahead,  but not this guy.