unlimited liability?

[George Wallace]

The CF are very 'Safety Conscious'.  You will be taught 'Safety First' in everything you do.  Most Civie jobs don't do that.  You will have hours, days of training on any weapon you will be handling, before you will ever see a live round.  Most injuries in the CF, believe it or not, are Sports Injuries.  From Sports, of course, but from other physical activities, like Forced Marches, Obstacle Crses, Digging or Lifting.  The chances of serious injury or death are very low.  I think you would probably have worse odds if you worked as a Cop in Metro or a Paramedic.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

"The chances of serious injury or death are very low.  I think you would probably have worse odds if you worked as a Cop in Metro or a Paramedic"

That is reassuring..


That was also my hope, I read somewhere that at the height of World War 2 , only 20% of the CF saw action.  That tells me that I have a least an 80% chance of not being in a fire fight. 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going in with an eye to dodge trouble.  But, I feel it is good to have a bit of an idea as to just how much trouble I'm getting myself into. 

I hope you can appreciate, unlike some of the ninja snipers I've come upon, i am not in a hurry to become cannon fodder. 

I think my kids would miss me.
I appreciate your input and I am looking forward to tomorrow.

I think I'll bring my kids along

 

[George Wallace]

Well "Life is a sexually transmitted disease with 100% mortality rate."  We are all going to die some time.  I figured I'd be dead before I was thirty, and I was 26 when I joined.  I figured I'd be missing my upper or lower half in a turret, somewhere on the German plains.  It never happened.  I survived over 28 years without any major injuries.  I'm probably in better shape than anyone I went to HS or University with (except those who also joined the Forces) and I don't consider myself 'athletic'.  There are other more pressing things in Life to worry about. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Mojo, you are starting to touch on and trying to define one of the ways in which military service is a commitment, and a shared commitment, like few other vocations. Similar to law enforcement, firefighters, etc., there is an inherent requirement to trust not only your own training, but also that of others and to trust that those around you will share a concern for the safety of all.

The following paragraphs are taken from our Training Safety manual:

B-GL-381-001/TS-000
OPERATIONAL TRAINING
TRAINING SAFETY

28. Safety is at once a state of mind and a condition of the training environment. All ranks have a very real responsibility and must work hard to develop and to maintain a high level of safety consciousness and to ensure an accident free environment. Safety consciousness and an accident free environment starts with ensuring correct drills and procedures are followed and taking appropriate steps to ensure an unsafe situation does not develop at any time.

29. Commanders at all levels in the chain of command are responsible to their subordinates and to their superiors for the safety of their personnel and to this end must take all necessary measures to ensure the development of safety consciousness throughout the unit or formation and an accident free environment for their personnel.

If you become obsessed with your personal safety to the extent that it impairs your ability to do your job, or that of others to trust that you will do your part in any shared task, then you become a liability. A hazardous working environment, in training or operations, is part of the job, and one that soldiers deal with; in some cases individual concerns may help dictate trade choices for those who have difficulty rationalizing the potential levels of hazard. In some cases, that "dealing with it" may well be youthful bravado (one reason why young men (in particular) seek such vocations at first) or casual indifference (playing the odds, though this, I believe, is more often the facade than the reality); but when the faeces hits the fan it's balancing a keen awareness of the dangers against one's own confidence to do the right thing that gets a soldier through.

Good training leads to safety consciousness, rather than a debilitating fear of potential consequences.

Soldiers do; however, always maintain a strong vested interest in controlling the extraneous factors when they can - hence one of the reasons why you will see many on this board in strong opposition to decriminilization of any recreational drugs (as one example). Anything that decreases the awareness or readiness of those around us adds an unwelcome variable. Risk is never simply accepted casually, knowing the risks, and trusting one's training and fellow soldiers is what gets people through the day-to-day requirements.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

ThankYou Sir.

 

[visitor]

Do any of you have an opinion about the lawsuit the Disabled Veterans filed against the government regarding getting the interest on the  funds they withheld for many years?

Does Medic have any statistics about  injury rates, and numbers of doctors, for example, at VA hospitals. I know there has been a push on to recruit Drs. and I can only surmise that is because there is a shortage, like everywhere else.  I cannot find stats like that on the CF web site and  no news may not necessarily mean good news in this instance.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Thats the Authorson decision, and the plaintiff lost. http://www.canlii.org/ca/cas/scc/2003/2003scc39.html

I took an injury in the CF, andthey certainly did what was necessary for me- but the DVA can be real clowns to deal with when they want to pinch a few pennies here and there:  

Canada (Attorney General) v. Frye, 2005 FCA 264 (CanLII)

http://www.canlii.org/ca/cas/fca/2005/2005fca264.html


Incidentally, the regulation that the DVA hung its hat on in this case was repealled a few years ago

 

[visitor]

I am starting to find  information from site such as:

http://www.medicalpost.com/mpcontent/article.jsp?content=/content/EXTRACT/RAWART/3724/25A.html

Seems a balanced view.

There are some gaps  and also some good things happening.  That is more in line with the info I was seeking, rather than "Don't worry. We'll take care of you."

 

[dearryan]

Mojo,

First of all I must say this is one of the best threads I have read on this site to date. However regarding the topic of unlimited liability here is my 2 cents.

As you are already aware accidents of every sort happen all the time on civi street, and for those of the population that have signed off as a, "unlimited liability". In my previous line of work (BC ambulance) many calls during the day were to those to businesses strictly governed by WCB. They ranged from amputated fingers, hands, and even death. In the short time that I was working as a paramedic I saw my share of MVA's and such. My point is that the rest of the population that is not technically listed as a "unlimited liability" seem to bang themselves up quite frequently. They (hopefully) are (or where) not as highly trained as you will be by the CF.

I aspire to have the honor to serve in one of the CF's more dangerous trades. In my opinion there is very few deaths, and maiming in that trade. However, I also currently work with a civilian volunteer search and rescur team who despite their efforts seems to become victims themselves more often than not.

"Act like a victim and sooner or later you will become one" . Thats a quote from my dad (tells me that one on a regular basis).

Later

Ryan

 

[Donut]

On the subject on duty-related injuries, unlimited liability et al, I'll throw in my experiences with both service-related and non-duty injuries for CF members.

I've dealt with patients who were injured on duty, DVA involved, well documented cases, and, over all, there care has been comparable to, or better then, that they would have received had they been civilians and the case gone to WCB.  It's a big beaurocracy, don't get me wrong, and it has it's hoops to jump through, but, by and large, the hoops have been worth it to the members, whether it's a bad back or a game knee.

The most wrenching thing I've seen in the CF is members who were injured on their own time, and subsequently unfit for the CF, from car accidents, house fires, head injuries, what have you.  The poor SOB who gets smoked by a drunk while riding his bike, well, he's going after the drunks insurance company, and will probably come out with a decent settlement, and a decent QOL when all is said and done.

The schmuck who burns himself badly in a house-fire, well, he's got no real recourse AFAIK, and is now unemployable and living on a SISiP Pte's insurance payments. That's what really sucks.

The CF obligation to non-duty injured members is pretty minimal, we'll return you to where you enrolled, but that's about it.  I've even seen cases where discharged members, due to residency requirements for home-care and rehab, have been inelligible for those types of care on release, because the CF returned them to where they enrolled, and they had been resident in another province.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if you're injured on duty, which seems to be the OPs main concern, you're fairly well taken care of.  If it happens on your own time, it's a different matter entirely, and the compensation is variable.

DF

 

[Mojo Magnum]

Having sworn in today, thus having the yoke/committment of "unilimted liability" go from a "what if" to "here I am",
I have the sense that anyone who chooses to consider the CF as a career/lifestyle, should give long and hard thought as to whether or not they believe in their reasons for joining enough to risk it. accept it. 

At the very least, I suspect, that just knowing that such a fate could be a possiblity, will have me enjoying my good health with a lot more enthusiasm and thankfullness for every day that it lasts.

hoo ahhh
(hey George, if I ever meet you, I'm buying you a drink)

 

[Mojo Magnum]

and a stripper ;D

 

[ZipperHead]

Now that you've "signed on the line", you can have the joy of experiencing "buyers remorse" ;D

I think I get what you were trying to get across in your original post. I also think you perhaps spent TOO much time analyzing the implications. You should have done what 99.9% of people who join the miltary do: Realize you get to shoot guns, blow shit up, AND get paid for it, and not think about tomorrow (other than planning the shack-party).....

Well, that's what I did.....

The reality is that the more you worry about things like that, the more likely they are going to happen. There ARE things that you can do to prevent stupid things from happening, but I have seen way too many near misses (and not so near misses), in the military and in the civilian world.

2 examples: My 3 yr old daughter was walking/running down the sidewalk at the sitter's house. She falls down and hits her head on the sidewalk. 2 days later has a seizure/blood clot/stroke. 2.5 hrs later they are performing emergency brain surgery. 10 days in a drug induced coma, hypothermic-state, paralyzed to reduce swelling, promote healing, prevent further injury. Much rehab, much hard work on her part. She is now 5 years old and runs around like nothing happened.

Second example: We were on a live fire (in Leopard tanks) when one of the tanks had a stoppage on the C6 machine-gun. There is a round in the chamber. Loader not 100% confident in unloading the weapon, commander takes over. THey wait about 10 minutes before carrying on. Sgt removes barrel to remove round, BOOOOM, casing goes through Sgt's chest (exit wound as well). He nearly dies, but was up and walking within a few weeks, and went overseas within 6 months (IIRC).

Shit happens. It happens in the military. It happens in the civvy world. Minimize the risks, protect your family and yourself with all the coverage available (SISIP, LTD (Long term disability), etc).

We all have to die one day. I just hope it isn't in a vehicle rollover in some ditch in some shit-hole on the other side of the world..... but if it happens, it happens.

One thing I will mention, as was touched on by George, was that there was a time (not so long ago) that the Machine didn't give a shit about the "damaged goods" that were coming out of our excursions to the Balkans, Somalia, Rwanda, etc (no offense intended to those that were injured or killed, but I don't think the Institution that is DND saw these pers as people, only as numbers at best, and inconveniences at worst.....). If a senior officer (Maj Henwood) was getting the gears, imagine what Pte Bloggins or Cpl Snrub had to deal with. Because of people like Maj Henwood getting involved in making things better for all injured soldiers, things improved greatly (the negative press must have effected someone's political career too much is the most likely answer, but whatever works....).

I would like to think that all will be well and good if I am crippled, maimed, or worse, while serving my country, part of me tells me that this isn't neccesarily so. It's not that the unit, or the base, or the CF wouldn't look after me or my family (I have seen a LOT of support from the unit's, bases, and mostly individual member's to look after member's of the "family"..... more so than if it were a factory, or a company, or a normal quote job unquote), its what happens after you are no longer part of the "family". Veteran's Affairs is (from what I have witnessed) just another bureaucratic cog in the machine. You become just a file folder wanting more of this (money), less of that (paperwork), etc, etc. I hear tell they refuse a certain percentage of claims "just because", in the hopes you'll back down and not appeal, so they save money. There's looking after the troops..... Nothing's too good for the troops, so that's what they'll get: NOTHING!!!

Anyway, far from wanting to bum you out just after signing-up, a little reality break on your existential jouirney might do you some good (or not). Just remember: the best trained JTF-Sniper-Ninja could have a 500lb "dumb" bomb land on him at H-Hr minus 1 minute, and the biggest clod in the world could survive 10 section-attacks armed only with the spoon from his KFS (knife/fork/spoon set). I'd put my money on the JTF dude, but you never know.......

Al

 

[visitor]

Allan, Glad to hear your daughter recovered, but a friend of mine had the same problem with their kid. Thought they were out of the woods, Now the kid is 20 and a high school drop out because of learning disabilities  that arose later, related to that brain injury.  They are not so blase as you. I could also show you plenty of people in rehab who are paralyzed or have brain injuries who did not get there by "worrying too much". Some of them are damn sorry they didn't think of  buying better insurance when they were healthy.

Generally, I fiind the people who are in the "don't worry about it"  camp, are  there because they have nothing to worry about.

 

[ZipperHead]

To save anyone reading this $1500 in therapy that the military/Blue Cross spent in an effort to help my pathetic memory problem (didn't really work....) but I did learn a bit about worrying: the act of worrying does nothing to help you. The actions you take because of your worries are what can help (or hurt) you. If that doesn't make sense, don't worry: it took me about 5 or 6 sessions before I clued into what the doctor was getting at (at $150 a session, they don't GIVE you the answers, they draw the answer out slooooooowly..... what do I care? I didn't have to pay (directly)......).

I may seem blase, but I have learned a lot about life in my 37 years. I am by nature a worry-wart (inherited from my mother), and used to stress over many things that I have little or no control over. Worrying about possibly dying today (or tomorrow) by a bolt of lightening or some such thing is a waste of energy. Taking steps to preventing dying or tragedies (wearing a seatbelt, wearing a bike helmet, not smoking, exercising regularly, trying to eat healthier, not drinking and driving, buying insurance for my house, testing smoke-detectors, wearing safety gear, etc, etc) is what is key. I'm not a fool: I don't run with scissors, run blindly into traffic, follow a 2Lt with a map and compass in his/her hands, etc.

We aren't out of the woods yet with our daughter, either. She may remain at a 5 year mental capacity, or 6 or 8 or whatever. If it happens, we'll deal with it. Worrying about it will do nothing...... We are also going to have to limit any potential for brain injuries in the future, so football is out (soccer for that matter.... heading the ball) and we will have to look at less dangerous sports or activities. But we want her to be as "normal" as possible. We can't treat her like she's made of glass: she wouldn't be living then, only existing.

And as for being a lucky guy who is in the "don't worry about it camp", I'll burst your bubble. My dad died relatively young (48), so I get to worry about that (possibly occuring to me). My best friend from as far back from Grade 1 died of a heart defect. My mom has glaucoma. My brother had cataracts removed when he was about 35. I have things to worry about, and I realize my mortality, as well of those around me. Again, worrying about it does nothing. I got my eyes tested for glaucoma. I see a doctor fairly regularly. I have had suspicious moles looked at. And believe me, I am not putting my fate in the hands of a "higher being". Al looks out for Al (because Al has 3 kids to look after......).

Al

 

[Mojo Magnum]

I was recently asked by another parent, (after they got over the shock that someone in their mid 30's could actually get in the army, and that somoene with a family would actually want to), aren't you concerned about "if something happens?".

Having been on the recieving end of that question, I'd like to apologize for asking it.  As soon as the words came out of his mouth I realized, it was a personal question.  I doubt any two people would give you the same answer and their answer regardless of how poetic will inevitably be insufficient. 

Either you can come to terms with unlimited liability and forget about it, or don't sign up.

  My answer at the time was, honestly, a clue as to why so many people do not have a good answer to question.  I mumbled something about "if you want something done right, you do it yourself".  No where near what I was really thinking. 

The first thing I really thought was "None of your damn business".