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"Unionizing" the CF (merged)

X Royal, I don't think comparing the CF Judicial system and the civilian can ever be compared fairly to each other. But there are many similarities. As SL stated many people come to court unrepresented. And often unprepared for what is to occur. This can occur on Provincial Offences and even Criminal Code matters. In Alberta the general penalty for a Provincial Offence is a fine of 0 to $2000 and/or 6 months in jail. I have seen people not contact counsel in advance and then refuse duty counsel and plead guilty to offences after the judge has explained the penalty range includes custody and hearing that the Crown will seek gaol. In Northern Manitoba I saw people do the same on minor Criminal Code charges over the speaker phone to a judge after the court party could not fly in. Whenever I acted for the Crown I always explained all the steps and issues and advised the judge what info I provided to the accused. Usually trying to have an elder or a relative present for fairness. I can't say all other RCMP members did the same and may some people have agreed to penalties longer than a lawyer could have argued for them if their court was in Ottawa or other cities. Maybe. But when the choice is 20 days custody upon sentence in Detachment cells ( where we let family visit, drop off food and once gave buddy a day pass to go to a birthday) or 30 days remanded (sent out to a provincial jail) before their next court date for a plea. Ultimately it was their choice. Is Justice equal for all, no. Fair? We try.
 
In the civilian system even at the JP level you have the option of having a lawyer represent you (on your own dime) but do you have this same option at a military summary trial?
 
X Royal said:
In the civilian system even at the JP level you have the option of having a lawyer represent you (on your own dime) but do you have this same option at a military summary trial?
Yes you can hire a lawyer . There is also a legal service provided by the JAG.
 
As stated previously;

A member feels he was wronged the member can put in a grievance, or call the Ombudsman.

The Ombudsman is the uncle that sits in the corner asks why are you crying, says ok, and tells you to go back to play.

I have yet to see the Ombudsmen step in and fix a situation, the only thing I have seen them do is provide a non biased report about the Policies, Direction and situation with the CAF, VAC and other Government Agencies. Which, if you visit and pay attention to their site you will see a very long list of reports, and the suggested COA the particular Agency should take. I havent seen much progress in this, hundreds of reccomendations, reports that are hundreds of pages long, with no resolutions or results in place (See Cold Lake PMQ temp price freeze due to PLD, yet the cost of PMQs rose significantly this year with no improvements made). The Ombudsman seems to be the Good Conscience sitting on the shoulders that they just ignore.

As for the Grievance board, I am impressed with them. They have sped up timings, they have pumped back results effectively, efficiently and fairly. However, the 6-9 month turnaround is not fast enough for issues that arise quickly and promptly. Even then, you are putting a complaint in against the system to the system. (complaing to your brother for picking on you while hes punching you in the arm). For certain events such as PER redress, minor various disputes where a third party not attached to the direct CoC it is extremely beneficial. Put into place though, you are grieving a policy (Terms of Service, Permanent MEL Change, Forced release,) or an act that occured due to a policy change, or you were wronged because of a decision made up, way up in the Command. How can you be 100% sure that it is not being looked at somewhat biased, especially with a DMCA, D MIL C stamp on it and the appropriate Flag/Staff officer signing off on it. At that point you are setting a precedent, for other people to make the same claim that they were wronged under similar circumstances. That opens a Can of Worms that I am fairly certain the Grievance Board does not want to do.


So where is someone to turn when the system fails. Civilian courts? Look at the latest case where the CAF spent close to $700k in legal expenses against the 6 members with the class action suit. They spent more on the legal expenses then the probable cost of giving those members exactly what they were after. The case isnt even over yet.

An organization like the Ombudsman with the power of the grievance board is more effective in a situation such as this.

 
X Royal said:
In the civilian system even at the JP level you have the option of having a lawyer represent you (on your own dime) but do you have this same option at a military summary trial?
As I have posted a number of times already: fines are significantly constrained and jail time is not an option at Summary Trial unless the accused has been given the option of elevating the case to court martial.  This effectively does give the member the option of having a lawyer because at court martial there will be a defence lawyer.  Those summary trial proceedings where an election is not given are incomparable to civilian court proceedings; they are instead analogous to disciplinary proceedings of civilian professional associations.
 
Hamish Seggie said:
Yes you can hire a lawyer . There is also a legal service provided by the JAG.

Yes you can hire a lawyer on your own dime, but the Presiding Officer is under no obligation to allow him/her to speak.  The JAG does NOT provide a representative to the accused.  If that has changed I've not been told.
 
upandatom said:
An organization like the Ombudsman with the power of the grievance board is more effective in a situation such as this.

If by "grievance board" you mean the Military Grievances External Review Committee (it used to be called the Canadian Forces Grievance Board), then I have to correct you and say that the Committee has no power other than moral suasion.  The CDS is the Final Authority (FA)for all grievances and has the ability to agree or disagree with the Committee's findings.  The advantage of the Committee, however, is that they will look at the grievance from a legal point of view (they're all lawyers) and will cite precedence in law.  Notwithstanding that though, the CDS is not under any obligation to follow their recommendations.

With regard to grievances setting precedents, they don't.  Any ruling from the FA makes it very clear that every grievance is unique and the CDS is under no obligation to treat similar case the same way and he is not bound by any previous decisions.
 
Bumped with the latest plea, this time from a former CF member, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ....
It’s an idea that deserves serious consideration, especially in light of the failure of Canada’s military brass to properly deal with issues such as care of its sick and wounded, harassment of personnel, and sexual assault: Should our military be allowed to form a professional association that will advocate for its members, assist and advise soldiers with any grievances that they may have, and bargain collectively with government to improve the conditions of service for all men and women in uniform?

Military associations with collective bargaining rights have, for decades, been a staple among many of our European NATO allies such as Germany, Belgium, Norway and the Netherlands.  Most recently French military personnel won the right to form an association though the French government fell short of granting their soldiers full collective privileges.

No doubt, the thought of an association of uniformed and serving Canadian military personnel bargaining for better service conditions will raise a few worried eyebrows — much like women in combat roles did 25 years ago.  Yet the idea is not as foreign to the Canadian security establishment as one might initially think.
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From the Canadian Border Services Agency to the Canadian Coast Guard to our municipal police and fire services, to various employees of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the Communication Security Establishment, our security personnel carry out their duties in the defence of Canada and Canadians as members of a unionized workplace.  Soon to be added to the extensive list of union shops in Canada’s security and defence network is the RCMP which, in a recent Supreme Court ruling, won the right to organize.

And though, for obvious reasons, many of  these services may not have the right to strike, they still maintain the right to form an association, bargain collectively, and advocate on behalf of their fellow members.

If we trust our police,  firefighters, coast guard personnel and border guards to organize and bargain for better working conditions and benefits , why then do we still find it necessary to deny our army, navy and air force personnel the same right?

It is a question that will inevitably be asked by an increasingly better educated and informed military

“In the decades ahead, Canada, like most advanced democracies, will find it increasingly difficult to compete on the open market to recruit and retain personnel to serve in the military,” says retired colonel and lawyer Michel Drapeau. “Given that the rank and file (and their spouses) are increasingly more sophisticated and educated, they will want to have a say in their conditions of service. At present, the individual has no voice whatsoever; it is all totally one-sided.”

For retired air force captain and disabled veteran advocate Sean Bruyea, an organized military association protecting its members would help protect the military’s “most valuable operational resource” — its serving members.

“Past and present military thinkers have all told us that the individual soldier is the greatest resource. Yet the interests of this greatest resource are placed last behind all other political and bureaucratic concerns.  A military association or union would place these interests on an equal footing.”

Probably the  largest criticism of a Canadian military association is that it would devalue leadership and compromise discipline, thus preventing the military from carrying out combat operations.

Drapeau insists that this is not what a military association is about.

“An association of military personnel would not be involved in these operational areas. They would respect the need for discipline as well as the need for the unity of command which provides a military force with the required command and control mechanisms to successfully conduct military operations.”

Instead, according to Drapeau, the focus of an association would be on personnel matters such as annuities and pensions, health and dental care, compensation and benefits, harassment, grievances where “military personnel should enjoy a level of support and benefits at least equal to that provided to a member of civil society or other sectors of the general public service.”

I don’t think anyone in the military and veteran community would oppose our men and women in uniform having the right to comparable pay and benefits to those of other members of the public service. Yet, when the u-word comes up as a possible long-term solution, it is invariably met with the argument that it would compromise the high standards of leadership that all officers and non-commissioned officers are rigorously required to uphold.

“That is not the case in Europe, that is not the case in industry and that is not the case in the public service,” says Drapeau. “Good leaders are sought everywhere, and if you happen to be a good leader then the association won’t come and play in your neck of the woods; they will only represent such matters as pay and benefits and pension issues.”

In fact, according to Bruyea, a military union would reinforce effective leadership.

“Leadership would have to become more caring through awareness and education from this new equal partner. Leadership would necessarily become stronger due to the need to more justly balance personal concerns with political interests, bureaucratic demands and operational needs.”
Read & Debate

In fact, as I have personally observed as a union steward in my current employment, only weak, self-serving and destructively career-obsessed leaders feel threatened by a unionized workplace. The military would be no different.

But maybe a unionized military need never be considered if we still honestly believe those who serve our military as infantry soldiers, naval combat information operators, airborne electronic sensor operators and communicator research operators, to name only a few, are simple mindless automatons who cannot be trusted with a legal collective stake in their own welfare and career progression.

Our men and women in uniform, however, may perceive their self worth quite differently.
 
"Instead, according to Drapeau, the focus of an association would be on personnel matters such as annuities and pensions, health and dental care, compensation and benefits, harassment, grievances where “military personnel should enjoy a level of support and benefits at least equal to that provided to a member of civil society or other sectors of the general public service.”

This is the key reason we should fight off this notion.  Frankly, I rather like the fact that our current level of support and benefits exceeds that of the public service.  I'm not interested in anything that could degrade that.
 
Pusser said:
This is the key reason we should fight off this notion.  Frankly, I rather like the fact that our current level of support and benefits exceeds that of the public service.  I'm not interested in anything that could degrade that.

In that same sense though, we're constantly under attack on those benefits and have no voice to fight Treasury Board on them. That, and PSAC continually bargains away our items (likely unintentionally) to the benefit of their members. I personally do not like the public service unions, but if our pay/benefits is being tied to someone else's bargaining, that's not fair or equitable.
 
And for those that want a union, don't forget the  $1000+ a year for dues that you'll have no control on how they spend it, even if you don't agree with their platform.
 
Slightly off topic but along the same lines looks like the CVA is looking at the idea of a Veterans Association with the big Union UNIFOR. I see some pros but mostly cons with this idea.
 
Teager said:
Slightly off topic but along the same lines looks like the CVA is looking at the idea of a Veterans Association with the big Union UNIFOR. I see some pros but mostly cons with this idea.

Just what they need, to alienate even more veterans.
 
>"Instead, according to Drapeau, the focus of an association would be ...

... whatever the association can find to keep itself busy, irrespective of what Drapeau thinks it should be. 
 
Military associations with collective bargaining rights have, for decades, been a staple among many of our European NATO allies such as Germany, Belgium, Norway and the Netherlands.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that all these countries found the unions weren't all they cracked-up to and have since gotten rid of them?
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that all these countries found the unions weren't all they cracked-up to and have since gotten rid of them?

Yep, just who we want to emulate.... Germany, a country we have beaten not once, but twice!
 
Teager said:
Slightly off topic but along the same lines looks like the CVA is looking at the idea of a Veterans Association with the big Union UNIFOR. I see some pros but mostly cons with this idea.

CVA should go pi$$ up a rope .
 
Teager said:
Slightly off topic but along the same lines looks like the CVA is looking at the idea of a Veterans Association with the big Union UNIFOR. I see some pros but mostly cons with this idea.
Good point - a few more details in a recent email (attached), shared to add to the discussion.
 
So now CVA, a shrill organization IMO, wants to turn up the volume?

Great  ::)
 
Veterans' Professional Association?  If you make a profession of being a veteran, you are doing it wrong.
 
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