Underage Drinking Fears (Merged)

[Marshall]

???

What kind of discombobulated statement is that?   I am positive a Lawyer would be more than happy to set you straight, if he could figure out what exactly you were really saying.  All Bases have establishments that sell alcohol in accordance with the Provincial Laws.  There are NO EXCEPTIONS to the LAW.

I am glad you cleared that up, I thought it seemed a tad off to me. (Not educated in too many drinking laws etc, since I rarely partake in it). I was sure you can not drink underage with adult supervision, my friends would rejoice with that type of law..  :

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I wonder if he heard of the phrase "Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor" or Liquour License Revoked?

 

[2 Cdo]

Drinking by minors under adult supervision is permitted in licensed premises in the provinces of Manitoba and New Brunswick and at home in Prince Edward Island, Alberta, British Columbia, Ontario and Sask.

The only licensed premises in Manitoba (I can't comment on any other province) a minor is allowed to drink in with "parental" supervision is restaurants. Bars or nightclubs are still off limits. Having all the facts will make your point more clear. Also, note my change to your post. Parental versus adult supervision.

 

[ARMY_101]

I'm sure you'll be fine with continuing your application process.  It would be a much bigger issue if you denied any drinking or drug use yet they found it in your bloodstream.  You've been upfront and honest, which is good.

As for the comments about being able to drink on base, I have no idea where that came from.  I see the request for a lawyer to set the person straight, and I'm not one, but I can cite the law fairly well:

Liquor Licence Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. L. 19:

Rules, persons under 19

30.  (1)  No person shall knowingly sell or supply liquor to a person under nineteen years of age. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (1).

Idem
(2)  No person shall sell or supply liquor to a person who appears to be under nineteen years of age. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (2).

Permitting possession or consumption
(3)  No licensee or employee or agent of a licensee shall knowingly permit a person under nineteen years of age to have or consume liquor in the licensee’s licensed premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (3).

Idem
(4)  No licensee or employee or agent of a licensee shall permit a person who appears to be under nineteen years of age to have or consume liquor in the licensee’s licensed premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (4).

Person under 19, use of ferment on premise facility
(4.1)  No licensee of a ferment on premise facility or employee or agent of such a licensee shall,

(a) knowingly permit a person under 19 years of age to use the facility for the making of beer or wine;

(b) permit a person who appears to be under 19 years of age to use the facility for the making of beer or wine. 1998, c. 24, s. 12 (1); 2006, c. 34, s. 16 (42).

Exception to subss. (3) and (4)

(5)  Subsections (3) and (4) do not prohibit a licensee or employee or agent of a licensee from permitting a person eighteen years of age to be in possession of liquor during the course of the person’s employment on the licensee’s licensed premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (5).

Possession or consumption

(8 )  No person under nineteen years of age shall have, consume, attempt to purchase, purchase or otherwise obtain liquor. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (8 ).

So, there's no giving liquor to people on base simply because they're under adult supervision.  I have no idea where this came from, and it certainly was not something allowed during any of my training.

 

[George Wallace]

army08

You have to learn to READ the whole of anything that is written.  As you have made false statements, due to not reading or just having "Selective" hearing/reading habits, we shall post the ONTARIO LAWS reference persons under 19 years of age.......verbatum from the links that you have provided us:


http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90l19_e.htm#BK70

Rules, persons under 19

30.  (1)  No person shall knowingly sell or supply liquor to a person under nineteen years of age. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (1).

Idem

(2)  No person shall sell or supply liquor to a person who appears to be under nineteen years of age. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (2).

Permitting possession or consumption

(3)  No licensee or employee or agent of a licensee shall knowingly permit a person under nineteen years of age to have or consume liquor in the licensee’s licensed premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (3).

Idem

(4)  No licensee or employee or agent of a licensee shall permit a person who appears to be under nineteen years of age to have or consume liquor in the licensee’s licensed premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (4).

Person under 19, use of ferment on premise facility

(4.1)  No licensee of a ferment on premise facility or employee or agent of such a licensee shall,

(a) knowingly permit a person under 19 years of age to use the facility for the making of beer or wine;

(b) permit a person who appears to be under 19 years of age to use the facility for the making of beer or wine. 1998, c. 24, s. 12 (1); 2006, c. 34, s. 16 (42).

Exception to subss. (3) and (4)

(5)  Subsections (3) and (4) do not prohibit a licensee or employee or agent of a licensee from permitting a person eighteen years of age to be in possession of liquor during the course of the person’s employment on the licensee’s licensed premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (5).

Reliance on documentation

(6)  A person who sells or supplies liquor to another person, permits another person to have or consume liquor in licensed premises or permits a person to use a ferment on premise facility to make beer or wine on the basis of documentation of a prescribed type is not in contravention of subsection (2), (4) or (4.1) if there is no apparent reason to doubt the authenticity of the documentation or that it was issued to the person producing it. 1998, c. 24, s. 12 (2); 2006, c. 34, s. 16 (42).

Court may determine apparent age

(7)  In a prosecution for a contravention of subsection (2), (4) or (4.1), the court may determine, from the appearance of the person and from other relevant circumstances, whether a person to whom liquor was served or supplied, a person who was permitted to have or consume liquor or a person who was permitted to use a ferment on premise facility to make beer or wine appears to be under 19 years of age. 1998, c. 24, s. 12 (2); 2006, c. 34, s. 16 (42).

Possession or consumption

( 8 )  No person under nineteen years of age shall have, consume, attempt to purchase, purchase or otherwise obtain liquor. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 ( 8 ).

Exception to subs. ( 8 )

(9)  Subsection ( 8 ) does not prohibit a person eighteen years of age from being in possession of liquor during the course of the person’s employment on premises in which the sale or service of liquor is authorized. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (9); 2006, c. 34, s. 16 (43).

Entering premises

(10)  No person under nineteen years of age shall enter or remain on premises in which the sale of liquor is authorized if the person knows that a condition of the licence or permit for the premises prohibits the entry of persons under nineteen years of age. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (10).

Exception to subs. (10)

(11)  Subsection (10) does not apply to a person eighteen years of age who is employed on premises in which the sale or service of liquor is authorized while the person is on the premises during the course of his or her employment. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (11); 2006, c. 34, s. 16 (44).

Improper documentation

(12)  No person shall present as evidence of his or her age any documentation other than documentation that was lawfully issued to him or her. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (12).

Supply by parent

(13)  This section does not apply,

(a) to the supplying of liquor to a person under nineteen years of age in a residence as defined in section 31 or in a private place as defined in the regulations by a parent of the person or a person having lawful custody of the person; or

(b) to the consumption of liquor by a person who is supplied liquor in a manner described in clause (a), if the liquor is consumed at the place where it is supplied. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (13).

In other words, anyone in Ontario, under the age of 19, CAN NOT consume alcohol or be in or on the same premises that permits the sale and consumption of alcohol.  The only exception is found in R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (13)(a): "(a) to the supplying of liquor to a person under nineteen years of age in a residence as defined in section 31 or in a private place as defined in the regulations by a parent of the person or a person having lawful custody of the person".  

This is NOT LAW nation wide.  Every Province has their own Laws and Statutes.  What may be legal in Ontario, may not be legal in another Province or country.

 

[ARMY_101]

Acknowledged; I figured since the law quoted was from the Revised Statutes of Ontario it would be clear it applied to Ontario.

I was just looking through a few DAOD's and QR&O's and I can find plenty of information on prohibited drug use and counselling, but is there anything that spells out alcohol consumption by underage drinkers?

 

[George Wallace]

I was just looking through a few DAOD's and QR&O's and I can find plenty of information on prohibited drug use and counselling, but is there anything that spells out alcohol consumption by underage drinkers?

Ah!  But Alcohol is not a "Prohibited" substance.

 

[ARMY_101]

True again   I found a few Health Services webpages on alcohol consumption, but they're both out of order right now   Is there any order that spells out alcohol use while on base or in a mess?

 

[George Wallace]

True again   I found a few Health Services webpages on alcohol consumption, but they're both out of order right now   Is there any order that spells out alcohol use while on base or in a mess?

All Messes and Institutions on DND Establishments must follow the Liquor Control Acts of, and be Licenced, by the Province that they are in.  The control of liquor in Single Quarters will also be governed by Base and Unit Routine Orders as well as the Liquor Laws of the Province.  PMQs would be the same as any other "private residence", except they may also have DND rules governing them, depending on the Base.

Regulations for HMCS's are different, and I have no idea of what they are, nor when they are "changed" from being "at sea" to "in Canadian waters" or under Canadian or Provincial jurisdiction.

 

[MARS]

Here is the MARCORD (27-12) governing alcohol consumption in all MARCOM units, including HMC Ships.

I haven't  bothered to include the link because it is a DIN link but the entire MARCORD is contained below.

MARITIME COMMAND ORDERS
PROVISION, SERVING AND CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
References:

          a.     QR&O 19.04
          b.     CFAO 27-12

PURPOSES

1.         This order amplifies the above mentioned references and prescribes the policy governing the provision, serving and consumption of alcoholic beverages within Maritime Command.     

APPLICATION

2.         This order applies to all CF facilities and functions including, but not restricted to: messes, CANEX lounges and restaurants, specialty interest clubs and facilities, social centres, DND armouries, unit dances, section parties, farewells, and other ad hoc occasions whether held on DND property or elsewhere.     

BACKGROUND

3.         Society has become increasingly intolerant of irresponsible behaviour connected with intoxication, in particular, when it is combined with driving. At the same time, the law respecting liability for damage or injury resulting from serving alcohol to intoxicated persons now recognizes a duty on the part of those serving alcohol not to create situations of danger to the persons being served or to others. This MARCORD has been developed to reduce the possibility of alcohol related accidents and to encourage the personnel of MARCOM to participate in the growing trend towards sobriety and responsible indulgence. It is essential that MARCOM be in tune with the CF and society as a whole in terms of a common sense approach to the provision, serving and consumption of alcohol.     

MARCOM POLICY

4.         Pursuant to QR&O 19.04:

          a.     these orders shall apply to all HMC Ships and MARCOM craft and unit facilities and functions within, where alcohol is served or consumed;

          b.     the standards of care for the serving and consumption of alcohol in all HMC Ships and MARCOM craft and units are to conform with those established by federal, provincial and municipal law;
          c.     alcoholic beverages are not to be subsidized or discounted including:
(1) bars and messes are to operate on a break-even or a money making basis only, and
(2) a prohibition on Happy Hour Specials and/or "Weepers" prices;
          d.     non-alcoholic beverages, attractive in price and presentation are to be, at all times, available;
          e.     contests and competitions based on excessive consumption of alcoholic beverages (eg, "boat races") are forbidden;
          f.     the consumption of alcohol by minors is strictly prohibited in all ships and units in MARCOM;
          g.     honour bars and vending machines which dispense alcoholic beverages are to be controlled to prevent their use by underage personnel;
          h.     persons who appear intoxicated are not to be served alcoholic beverages under any circumstances;
          i.     individual members of MARCOM are to be aware:
(1) that the primary responsibility for the wise and moderate consumption of alcohol and related behaviour rests with the individual, and
(2) that there is a potential for personal liability when serving alcohol in their home; and
          j.     under no circumstances can a member be forced to drink a toast with an alcoholic beverage.     
5.         Maritime Command encourages a sensible approach to the provision, consumption and serving of alcohol. This MARCORD is not to preclude the serving of alcoholic beverages but rather to ensure responsible behaviour. In these changing times, moderation in drinking habits coupled with a reasonable approach in one's lifestyle is a trend that MARCOM should emulate. Non-drinking members should not, at anytime, be required to imbibe and more moderate lifestyles are encouraged.     

6.         All personnel in Maritime Command shall at all times promote responsible attitudes and practices in order to reflect a healthy attitude with regard to the consumption, provision and serving of alcohol.     

From CFAO 27-12:

f.   provision to, or consumption of alcoholic beverages by, military
          or civilian personnel who are under the legal drinking age in the
          province in which the unit is located is prohibited;

-----------------------------------------------
Practically, this means that HMC Ships have an established age of 19 yrs old in order to drink.  When we are alongside a foreign port and local guests are on board, those guests (meaning residents of whatever port we are in) must adhere to the age limit of the state/province/country that we are visiting.  Members of the Ship's Company, who may be under the age of 21 (to use the U.S. drinking age as an example) are permitted to consume alcohol in the mess.  Can't find a reference that explicitly states that, but that is how I have administered things in the past and appears to be the way my fellow XO's and past CO's do things too.

I don't know how this would apply if, say, the relative of a Canadian sailor came to visit the Ship in whatever port and wanted to drink in the mess - never encountered that yet.  Unless my Captain told me different, I would authorize it, provided of course they were 19 or older.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Changed the thread title to reflect the new *cough* topic.

 

[Redeye]

Just for clarification, there's nothing illegal about someone under 19 in Ontario being in or on premises that serve alcohol.  If that was the case, teenagers wouldn't be allowed in restaurants.  Most licensed establishments in Ontario have house policies barring minors though, because it makes it a lot easier to just be able to know that everyone in the place is of age - that's why a lot of busier pubs, etc kick minors out after 9.  It's not a legal requirement under Ontario law though.

army08

You have to learn to READ the whole of anything that is written.  As you have made false statements, due to not reading or just having "Selective" hearing/reading habits, we shall post the ONTARIO LAWS reference persons under 19 years of age.......verbatum from the links that you have provided us:


http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90l19_e.htm#BK70
In other words, anyone in Ontario, under the age of 19, CAN NOT consume alcohol or be in or on the same premises that permits the sale and consumption of alcohol.  The only exception is found in R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 30 (13)(a): "(a) to the supplying of liquor to a person under nineteen years of age in a residence as defined in section 31 or in a private place as defined in the regulations by a parent of the person or a person having lawful custody of the person".  

This is NOT LAW nation wide.  Every Province has their own Laws and Statutes.  What may be legal in Ontario, may not be legal in another Province or country.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Acknowledged; I figured since the law quoted was from the Revised Statutes of Ontario it would be clear it applied to Ontario.

I was just looking through a few DAOD's and QR&O's and I can find plenty of information on prohibited drug use and counselling, but is there anything that spells out alcohol consumption by underage drinkers?

True again   I found a few Health Services webpages on alcohol consumption, but they're both out of order right now   Is there any order that spells out alcohol use while on base or in a mess?

CFAO 27-12  Provision, Serving and Consumption of Alcoholic Beverages.

Specifically WRT alcohol and minors, you are looking for what is written in Para 4(f):

4.  While the orders may take into consideration the special nature, circumstances and roles of individual units, as far as is practical having regard to the exigences of the service, they shall include provisions which ensure that:
     
f.  provision to, or consumption of alcoholic beverages by, military or civilian personnel who are under the legal drinking age in the province in which the unit is located is prohibited;
     

 

[George Wallace]

Just for clarification, there's nothing illegal about someone under 19 in Ontario being in or on premises that serve alcohol.  If that was the case, teenagers wouldn't be allowed in restaurants.  Most licensed establishments in Ontario have house policies barring minors though, because it makes it a lot easier to just be able to know that everyone in the place is of age - that's why a lot of busier pubs, etc kick minors out after 9.  It's not a legal requirement under Ontario law though.

Sorry.  You are correct.  However, in the cases that I had in mind, where "Food" was not being served as the main "course"/raison d'etre......ie BAR, NIGHTCLUB, etc. there are more stringent rules.....laws.  ;D

 

[Redeye]

Sorry.  You are correct.  However, in the cases that I had in mind, where "Food" was not being served as the main "course"/raison d'etre......ie BAR, NIGHTCLUB, etc. there are more stringent rules.....laws.   ;D

In the licensing rules there's some obscure rules that require that anywhere that serves alcohol must serve food of some sort, I don't remember where it is in the statutes.

Bars and nightclubs aren't forced to get minors out by law - none that I've worked in were anyhow - I haven't seen that as a condition on a license where I slung drinks.  That's why some places had all ages or "wet/dry" nights - but those were a real pain in the ass to work because you have to be a lot more careful who you're serving.

 

[Marshall]

I find this whole thread ironic now with the "you can drink at base etc"  hehe.

I just remember the minute the recruiter told me: "If you drink under 19 at RMC or any of the other bases, not only you but half a dozen others above you get in BIG trouble."

But then he dismissed it once he knew I'd be 19 by then anyways

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I find this whole thread ironic now with the "you can drink at base etc"  hehe.

I've read that 4 times and am not sure what it is supposed to mean.  Care to clarify some?

 

[ARMY_101]

I took it as him trying to say the topic of underage drinking is ironic with someone else proposing underage soldiers could drink on base.

 

[stealthylizard]

I had a summary charge back in 1996 because of underage drinking in the junior ranks.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Just to show things have changed though, I was 17 drinking in the Green and Gold in Cornwallis in 1978.