U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[willsfarm]

I think the United States have created a global state of affairs that probably transcends the notion that "ya join up, ya do as ya'r told". 

 

[Roy Harding]

I think the United States have created a global state of affairs that probably transcends the notion that "ya join up, ya do as ya'r told". 

Can you elaborate on that?

The last time I looked, when I sign a contract it means that I accept ALL the conditions contained therein - failure to do so usually means that I pay the penalty.

 

[gryphonv]

I've been reading this post and I want to give my feelings toward it.

I'm not enrolled yet (going to be sworn in March 31st), but these types of people make me sick.

I personally have a strong work ethic, what ever job I sign up to do, I do my best to honor my part of the agreement, whether its through a contract or a verbal agreement. And this is the same attitude I will have when I am under contract with the Forces, infact I plan on continuing past my initial contract of 10 years.

This is the same as walking out on any agreement. I even compair this person to that of a Dead Beat father, someone who is abandoning their family. And I'm positive not everyone in the military are pro war, that is a big misconception, I am anti war, but on the flip side I am willing to do anything required of me for my country, that would even include a draft if it ever came down to that.

I remember seeing a quote years back, cant seem to recall it all together, but I think it was from Napoleon and was something like "The best kind of soldier would walk into a lake and drown if ordered to do so." Now this is a bit of an extream example, but I believe a soldier should do whatever he is ordered to do so by a superior.

I'm sorry if I'm a bit crude with this, but its how I feel.

People like this is why we need contracts.

 

[willsfarm]

What I meant to say more elaborately was that I can understand the assertion that he not only violated a contract but fled his home country and therefore should endure a penalty.  It seems to me that that's not what the majority of you guys are debating (or overwhelmingly agreeing about).  

Isn't the situation in Iraq enough of a miscarriage of everthing the military stands for that an individual's protest deserves some attention of a different variety? Isn't what's going on over there bad enough for ANY of you to stop and say "Well, something does have to be done soon," and not so cold and dismissive as "Deport him."

Or are you all so jealous that you're not in Iraq as well that you it angers you when someone voluntarily opts out.

 

[daftandbarmy]

With the notable exception of Char9409's closing sentence, I absolutely agree with Mr. Harding's assessment.

However, I wonder, at what point did we Canadians decide it was acceptable for our country to function as a dumpster for morally bankrupt Americans who lack the satchel content to face the ramifications of their actions babysitting service for individuals who mask their watery equivalent to conscientious objections as unjust persecutions and lack the dedication and perseverance to follow their ideals regardless of the consequences?

Probably sometime around the date when we erected a statue in Nelson BC (at the Dukhabor Museum, it looks like) to commemorate Vietnam era draft dodgers. AFAIK, no other coutry in the world can claim that they have such a statue. Maybe we should be in the Guiness Book of World records?

http://www.spirit-wrestlers.com/excerpts/Our_Way_Home_2006.html

 

[Roy Harding]

What I meant to say more elaborately was that I can understand the assertion that he not only violated a contract but fled his home country and therefore should endure a penalty.  It seems to me that that's not what the majority of you guys are debating (or overwhelmingly agreeing about). 

Isn't the situation in Iraq enough of a miscarriage of everthing the military stands for that an individual's protest deserves some attention of a different variety? Isn't what's going on over there bad enough for ANY of you to stop and say "Well, something does have to be done soon," and not so cold and dismissive as "Deport him."

Or are you all so jealous that you're not in Iraq as well that you it angers you when someone voluntarily opts out.

I've lived such a life that I'm not "jealous" of anyone.

Whether I agree with your assessment of the Iraq war or not is immaterial - the individual we're discussing has violated a sacred trust, and has run away from his responsibilities, his family, and his country.

If he disagrees with his country's foreign policy he has the right to campaign against it.  BUT, as a voluntary member of his country's military he does not get to decide which war is worthy of participating in.

Canada should not be seen as a haven for opportunists such as him.

 

[gryphonv]

What I meant to say more elaborately was that I can understand the assertion that he not only violated a contract but fled his home country and therefore should endure a penalty.  It seems to me that that's not what the majority of you guys are debating (or overwhelmingly agreeing about).  

Isn't the situation in Iraq enough of a miscarriage of everthing the military stands for that an individual's protest deserves some attention of a different variety? Isn't what's going on over there bad enough for ANY of you to stop and say "Well, something does have to be done soon," and not so cold and dismissive as "Deport him."

Or are you all so jealous that you're not in Iraq as well that you it angers you when someone voluntarily opts out.

Broad generalizations really show a lack of respect. It seems like your trying to troll.

I feel the war in Iraq is unjust and was a wrong move, but on the opposite I would go if asked to do so for Canada.

But this is a moot point, its not the fact hes dodging the war, he's dodging his commitments. Bet you if he was stationed in the Carribean somewhere on a Navy Frigate, able to enjoy the weather and see some beauty, he wouldnt be here in canada freezing his butt off.

 

[aesop081]

Isn't the situation in Iraq enough of a miscarriage of everthing the military stands for that an individual's protest deserves some attention of a different variety?

Please explain how it is a miscariage of what the military stands for. Lat time i checked we followed the orders of our democraticaly elected leaders. The US Military is doing exactly that in Iraq.

Isn't what's going on over there bad enough for ANY of you to stop and say "Well, something does have to be done soon," and not so cold and dismissive as "Deport him."

No

Or are you all so jealous that you're not in Iraq as well that you it angers you when someone voluntarily opts out.

Ok, you got me. I dont want them here because i'm jealous of the fact that they are too spineless to stick to their principles and face the consequences of not honouring their - freely undertaken - obligations to their society. Thanks for setting me straight.

:

 

[willsfarm]

He is dodging his commitments, his military family and his country.  If the United States were my country I'd be dodging it as well, but nevertheless, there are punishments in place for this brand of desertion and it would be reasonable for him to expect to endure them at some point in the future.  

I guess you're all extremely skilled at separating politics from military service, even in a situation so rife with unconstitutionalism, collateral damage, imperialsm, financial and political greed, propaganda and unnecessary human loss as Iraq.  I can't help but be impressed with that level of compartmentalization. (No sarcasm intended whatsoever.)

He shouldn't run to Canada, I agree.  He shouldn't run anywhere.  But I couldn't take myself seriously for condemning his or any other U.S. Serviceman's  decision not to return to Iraq.

 

[aesop081]

 

I guess you're all extremely skilled at separating politics from military service,

Thank you

even in a situation so rife with unconstitutionalism, collateral damage, imperialsm, financial and political greed, propaganda and unnecessary human loss as Iraq.  I can't help but be impressed with that level of compartmentalization. (No sarcasm intended whatsoever.)

Thats you opinion only based on no fact whatsoever.

He shouldn't run to Canada, I agree.  

Great. Join the crowd and demand he be sent back

 

[medaid]

Who are you? Your profile doesn't say much about who you are and what kind of experience you have. Around here, if you want some credibility for your views, you've got to earn it, and one way of earning trust and credibility with us is filling out your profile. It's really simple to do actually.

What I meant to say more elaborately was that I can understand the assertion that he not only violated a contract but fled his home country and therefore should endure a penalty.  It seems to me that that's not what the majority of you guys are debating (or overwhelmingly agreeing about).

I thought this was exactly what we were debating about. Care to give an example of where we weren't?

Isn't the situation in Iraq enough of a miscarriage of everthing the military stands for that an individual's protest deserves some attention of a different variety? Isn't what's going on over there bad enough for ANY of you to stop and say "Well, something does have to be done soon," and not so cold and dismissive as "Deport him."

What do you know about what the military stands for? Which military? US military? Canadian Forces? Care to elaborate some more and clarify that statement?

He got is 5mins of fame, so what type of attention should I pay to him that's of a "different variety" ? Have YOU been over there? Or are you just another couch potato civi that loves to critique everything the government and the military does, but never had the will or the ability to do something about it?

What would you like US to do? You're sort of barking up the wrong tree there aren't you? He's a deserter from the United States Navy. NOT the Canadian Forces. Why is it cold? Have you SERVED a DAY in your life? DO YOU understand what it means to SERVE with HONOUR and INTEGRITY? If you can answer YES to any of the above, then I will give you an answer to WHY we want him deported. Actually, if you've answered YES to anything of the above, then you'll have had the answer yourself.

Or are you all so jealous that you're not in Iraq as well that you it angers you when someone voluntarily opts out.

I take that statement as a personal affront for every single servicemen and women both in the Canadian Forces and the United States Military. I have had buddies who bled, some more so then others in both Afghanistan AND Iraq. I've had people I know killed in Iraq, and people I knew of distantly who were killed in Afghanistan.

I WILL NOT HAVE YOU DEFAME THEIR NAME and THEIR SACRIFICE by you, some anonymous TROLL who probably can't and won't say these things to them face to face, eye to eye.

YOU have NO idea what it means to serve. What DUTY means, what INTEGRITY means, what HONOUR means. These aren't the terms and action sequences that you see on JAG, NCIS, Navy SEALs or any other movie or t.v. show. These are the values that many of us live by day in and day out. I will NOT have you come in here and insult us.

 

[willsfarm]

I'm not here to insult anyone.  For a group of guys so apparantly for rational discourse you're making a lot of generalizations as well.  I'm not stupid; no I don't get my opinions from movies. You don't need to hurl buzzwords at me.  I can see you're very upset, MedTech, but I think I'm making some reasonable points.

If we're not all under the assumption that the U.S. military is carrying out some questionable directives in Iraq then I'll bow out.

I don't think there's a shortage of proof of "unconstitutionalism, collateral damage, imperialsm, financial and political greed, propaganda and unnecessary human loss", that's not my opinion, I refuse that accusation and give me a day or two to gladly provide you with those facts. 

I am behind the opinion that he be sent back.  But that's an individual case representing the larger situation.

 

[aesop081]

I don't think there's a shortage of proof of "unconstitutionalism, collateral damage, imperialsm, financial and political greed, propaganda and unnecessary human loss", that's not my opinion, I refuse that accusation and give me a day or two to gladly provide you with those facts. 

I await your "facts" and, btw, wikkipedia is not "fact"

 

[willsfarm]

Can you narrow down which of those products of the war you've been ignoring? I can't accept that you think it's merely my "opinion" that some significant collateral damage has occured, or that the PsyOps Division hasn't been busy, or that some people have died that shouldn't have.

 

[medaid]

I'm not here to insult anyone.

Doing a pretty good job at it.

For a group of guys so apparantly for rational discourse you're making a lot of generalizations as well.

Uh... I never said I was part of any groups of guys...

I'm not stupid; no I don't get my opinions from movies.

Never said you were, and good for you that you don't get your opinions from movies.

You don't need to hurl buzzwords at me.

What buzzwords? What? Duty, Honour, Integrity? Those are buzzwords? Those apply to civilian life too you know, not just the military. With any job, and place. Even those buzzwords exist amongst criminals.

I can see you're very upset, MedTech, but I think I'm making some reasonable points.

Meh, I'm a little annoyed, but to go as far as say I'm upset? Not really. I don't have that kind of time to waste.

If we're not all under the assumption that the U.S. military is carrying out some questionable directives in Iraq then I'll bow out.

Nice generalization there too! I repeat my question to you. Have you served in the US Military? No? Do you KNOW anyone in the US Military? I don't mean you talk to one at a rally or anything like that, or watch them on t.v. I mean actually KNOW them?

I don't think there's a shortage of proof of "unconstitutionalism, collateral damage, imperialsm, financial and political greed, propaganda and unnecessary human loss", that's not my opinion, I refuse that accusation and give me a day or two to gladly provide you with those facts. 

I await those as well. BTW if you're really serious about this, you'd bring the points that support your argument and points that COUNTER your arguments as well. That's how you get a rounded argument.

I am behind the opinion that he be sent back.  But that's an individual case representing the larger situation.

You really still haven't answered the question of, have you served in the US Military? Know why people join the US Military? Talked to the people that joined the US Military? Know the background and organization of the US Military?

 

[S.Stewart]

My friendly advice for the day willsfarm, is fill out your profile, figure out your place, and stay there. It will make life alot less complicated for you. No one is out to get you, but the way this little community of ours works is...if you are going to make comments, and assumptions you best have fact to back them up. Some may call it being over critical, I call it thorough. Think before you speak, it will save you alot of energy, and explaining in the long run.

 

[willsfarm]

Regardless of my knowledge of U.S. military personnel, I thought that everyone agreed that perhaps what is happening in Iraq is less than honourable, if that's not the case - that some people disagree with that - then I'm sorry. Surprised, but sorry.  I don't think knowing U.S. servicemen intimately is necessary to be aware of some of what's happening there.

I'll concede to the fact that this isn't the point of the original post anyways.  If a similar discussion is taking place in another ... place .. then I'll take it there.

My friendly advice for the day willsfarm, is fill out your profile, figure out your place, and stay there. It will make life alot less complicated for you. No one is out to get you, but the way this little community of ours works is...if you are going to make comments, and assumptions you best have fact to back them up. Some may call it being over critical, I call it thorough. Think before you speak, it will save you alot of energy, and explaining in the long run.

I'm more than happy to explain, I just thought every globally aware citizen took some of this as a given.  Thanks for the advice, but give me a chance, I'll do fine.

 

[Delicron]

I'm more than happy to explain, I just thought every globally aware citizen took some of this as a given. 

Thus is the problem with people who see themselves as such, they are often people so blinded by their own world view that they assume everyone thinks the same as they.  The next person I see who claims to be so "globally aware" is likely to be someone who is least qualified to assess themselves in that way.  This comment strikes me as condescending, not to mention ignorant.

 

[willsfarm]

I didn't assume that anybody thought the same as me I assumed that people that were aware of the current global state knew that the Iraq war is plagued by controversy surrounding some questionable incidents and practices.

 

[S.Stewart]

In my opinion "Globally Informed", means media fed, but once again thats just my opinion.