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Trust in our Institutions

Has your trust in our institutions changed?


  • Total voters
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But doing nothing, the question remains open re: "how safe are these guys who are going to end up as cabinet ministers under a Team Blue government?" He will have enough time between being elected and being sworn in/naming a cabinet to act.
The election isn't coming till Oct 2025 (due to Singh's "power" to control the Libs {in his mind}). There is lots of time for the names to be leaked, which they will be.

Bang on - 3 reads, 3 takes.
You forgot Trudeau. He just doesn't take the report and the source seriously publicly as I bet it is unfavourable to himself/Liberals.
 
The election isn't coming till Oct 2025 (due to Singh's "power" to control the Libs {in his mind}). There is lots of time for the names to be leaked, which they will be.
I'd bet on this, too - and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe even a bit later if there's a new Team Red coach.
... You forgot Trudeau. He just doesn't take the report and the source seriously publicly as I bet it is unfavourable to himself/Liberals.
He must have taken at least SOME of the source material seriously before turfing one of his MPs from caucus because of (then) alleged shenanigans.
Oh, wait - that was AFTER the (then) alleged shenanigans were made public via leaks to the media. Funny, that ....

Late add: After Team Orange's coach tells media he'll leave it to parties to sort things out internally, he jumps into Team Red's turf (link to CBC.ca) ....
After reading an unredacted report from one of Canada's intelligence oversight bodies, NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh says he now thinks that Independent MP Han Dong shouldn't be allowed back into the Liberal caucus.

(...)

Speaking to CBC News Network's Power & Politics on Friday, Singh accused Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of not acting on the information in the report, and pointed to Dong's case as an example.

"It is clear that [Trudeau] knew and, in his actions, implicitly accepted a certain level of foreign interference," Singh told host David Cochrane.

"That sends a message that it is fair game for foreign powers to continue to try to influence, or manipulate or interfere with MPs."

(...)
I agree with him on this one, and I haven't heard the whole exchange, but I also see this as another bit of evidence of his being more partisan in his comms on this one than "hey, let's just get the whole institution sorted out, no?"
 
Liz May clarifying .....
Now she's saying some current members have been "compromised", adding she can't tell whether it's witting or un-witting, and that the unredacted report doesn't accuse anyone of treason. She suggests all the party leaders brief up, get together in a room with their party members on NSICOP & sort out a way to reassure Canadians in general. She said her's and Singh's interpretations can both stand at the same time.

Further fuzzifying the mudification, as a old timey columnist used to say ....

Also, according to Global News, the Hogue Commission has apparently issued a public notice saying, "The Commission takes note of the government’s decision to resort to the process of an independent commission of inquiry to shed light on the facts ... Some passages in this NSICOP’s special report suggest that Canadian parliamentarians may have wittingly or unwittingly participated in acts of foreign interference. These passages have raised concerns and provoked heated exchanges among parliamentarians and in the media,” adding that this can be done without changes to the Terms of Reference.
 
"Clarifying" yeah.... trying to reverse an outright lie is probably more accurate.
 
Food for thought, not speaking to any particular allegations or individuals… Given how narrow and specific the term ‘treason’ is in Canadian law, ruling it out doesn’t really actually tell us much at all. The overwhelming majority of foreign interference behaviours we’re considering here, whether witting or unwitting, could accurately (if pedantically) be described as not being treason. I don’t consider any pronouncements specifically denying treason to be of little value or meaning. It’s too limited and precise for its absence to be comforting.
 
Food for thought, not speaking to any particular allegations or individuals… Given how narrow and specific the term ‘treason’ is in Canadian law, ruling it out doesn’t really actually tell us much at all. The overwhelming majority of foreign interference behaviours we’re considering here, whether witting or unwitting, could accurately (if pedantically) be described as not being treason. I don’t consider any pronouncements specifically denying treason to be of little value or meaning. It’s too limited and precise for its absence to be comforting.
It’s hard to tell from my layman’s vantage point if there is anything illegal here, let alone anything that can actually be prosecuted and see the inside of a courtroom. Unethical and unpatriotic? Absolutely.

I get the caveats involved in this case (converting intel into usable evidence, due process, etc.). But we really need transparency and accountability to restore trust in our most hallowed institution. This requires all the parties to act like fucking grown ups and getting serious and working together fixing this shit. Unfortunately, our leaders would rather play silly bugger against each other.

I just know that is Pres. Biden knew the identities of congressmen conducting this type of activity and didn’t do anything about it and was revealed months later he knew and did nothing, I can guarantee that he would be on a fast track to impeachment and conviction by both parties.
 
It’s hard to tell from my layman’s vantage point if there is anything illegal here, let alone anything that can actually be prosecuted and see the inside of a courtroom. Unethical and unpatriotic? Absolutely.

I get the caveats involved in this case (converting intel into usable evidence, due process, etc.). But we really need transparency and accountability to restore trust in our most hallowed institution. This requires all the parties to act like fucking grown ups and getting serious and working together fixing this shit. Unfortunately, our leaders would rather play silly bugger against each other.

I just know that is Pres. Biden knew the identities of congressmen conducting this type of activity and didn’t do anything about it and was revealed months later he knew and did nothing, I can guarantee that he would be on a fast track to impeachment and conviction by both parties.
That is the difference between a melting pot and a multicultural country where one has a hot clue about threats to national security and the other doesn't care.
 
One of the few times I agree with him. If only I believed him given his previous aiding the government in stonewalling the China committee investigations. Even more shameful coupled with the CCP’s targeting of Jenny Kwan.
Speaking of Jenny Kwan, this from CBC.ca ...
An NDP MP is calling on the House of Commons to find a way to release the names of the MPs implicated in a foreign interference report released earlier this month.
Jenny Kwan raised a question of privilege in the House on Tuesday, suggesting that the report from the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians (NSICOP) had damaged the reputation of all sitting members.

That report alleged, based on intelligence reports, that some parliamentarians have been "semi-witting or witting" participants in the efforts of foreign states to interfere in Canadian politics. The unredacted version of the report did not specifically name any MP.

Kwan said that while the names of the MPs identified in the report remain secret, Canadians will lose trust in their elected officials.

"The report did not provide any names and as such all 338 members of this House, including those who have since left this chamber, are under a cloud of suspicion," Kwan said Tuesday ...
Globe & Mail version (also archived here if you hit a paywall with the previous link)
Her solution, according to Hansard?
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Assistant Deputy Speaker's response? We'll run it up the flagpole and get back to you.
 
Here's my take.

If he did read it and decide to kick people out they would probably be able to successfully argue they haven't been proven guilty.

It would also weaken the Conservatives by losing MPs where other parties aren't following suit.

We can safely guess all parties have guilty MPs, and the party leaders will do their best to mitigate their own damages.

If Poilievre reads the report he's going to be accused of trying to protect CPC interests with whatever actions short of firing everyone) he does.

By not reading the report he can remain willfully blind to traitors, which he can't do anything about right now, and call for the names to be released and put all parties on the same footing. Then if he manages to fire anyone, other parties will have to as well or be seen as not taking it as seriously as the CPC.

3 other party leaders have read it, along with others (Joly) and they all have their own versions. There's no advantage to reading it.
Everyone believes they deserve a trial beyond a reasonable doubt for everything. The reality is many things in higher up places can’t afford that. There is a reason administrative law is a balance of probabilities.

The head of the company I work for was replaced about a year and a half ago, no one said directly why at the time but it turns out he was charged with a DUI and suddenly, he is stepping down to pursue other things. He wasn’t yet convicted, but for the image of the company he was booted quickly.

Is it 100% fair? No. Is it necessary to protect national interests in this case? Yes. Being found guilty doesn’t always equal being guilty just as being found guilty doesn’t necessarily mean innocent.
 
... The reality is many things in higher up places can’t afford that. There is a reason administrative law is a balance of probabilities ...
As are most political party processes (removal from committee/other jammy jobs, caucus defenestration, not signing nomination papers, etc.)

Meanwhile, the latest from Team Light Blue (via The Canadian Press): we'll read it to find out if there's any rats on our own ship, but we don't be commenting on it.

So far, we have ...
  • Red Coach: Knows what's in the full report (as well as whether there may be rats on his ship), directed redactions, not sharing/holding back info requested by various bodies under “cabinet double-secret”, said not so much about it in public, says "let's let the Mounties deal with it," has a public history of interference in his caucus as well as mentions in the report
  • Blue Coach: Doesn't want to read the full report, has leadership processes mentioned in the report being interfered with in some way (bits already public from the past), no idea if he has any independent idea re: any of his caucus being tainted in the report, says he wants to be able to continue opposing by not being bound by restrictions connected with knowing if there's rats on his ship
  • Orange Coach: Read the full report, said some stuff about it in public (much of it different from the Orange coach's assessment), says there's trouble in River City - saying there's some level of problem with some serving members, says he's a target, wants all the coaches to be briefed up
  • Green Coach: Read the full report, said a fair bit about it in public (much of it different from the Green coach's assessment), concerned about the issue but says none of her current colleagues (hinting those in the House, anyway) are a problem
  • Hogue Commission: yeah, we heard you want us to look into the specific allegations from the NSICOP report & it fits our mandate
  • Assistant Deputy Speaker of the House: thanks for your suggestion, MP Kwan, about bringing it to a parliamentary committee - we'll look into it and get back to you
The situation continues to unfold without a real solution everybody is willing to buy into.
 
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As are most political party processes (removal from committee/other jammy jobs, caucus defenestration, not signing nomination papers, etc.)

Meanwhile, the latest from Team Light Blue (via The Canadian Press): we'll read it to find out if there's any rats on our own ship, but we don't be commenting on it.

So far, we have ...
  • Red Coach: Knows what's in the full report (as well as whether there may be rats on his ship), directed redactions, said not so much about it in public, says "let's let the Mounties deal with it," has a public history of interference in his caucus as well as mentions in the report
  • Blue Coach: Doesn't want to read the full report, has leadership processes mentioned in the report being interfered with in some way (bits already public from the past), no idea if he has any independent idea re: any of his caucus being tainted in the report, says he wants to be able to continue opposing by not being bound by restrictions connected with knowing if there's rats on his ship
  • Orange Coach: Read the full report, said some stuff about it in public (much of it different from the Orange coach's assessment), says there's trouble in River City - saying there's some level of problem with some serving members, says he's a target, wants all the coaches to be briefed up
  • Green Coach: Read the full report, said a fair bit about it in public (much of it different from the Green coach's assessment), concerned about the issue but says none of her current colleagues (hinting those in the House, anyway) are a problem
  • Hogue Commission: yeah, we heard you want us to look into the specific allegations from the NSICOP report & it fits our mandate
  • Assistant Deputy Speaker of the House: thanks for your suggestion, MP Kwan, about bringing it to a parliamentary committee - we'll look into it and get back to you
The situation continues to unfold without a real solution everybody is willing to buy into.
I think the solution that almost all Canadians would buy into would be - depending on the nature of the collusion of an MP & what the tangible consequences were, that those MP's be stripped of their privileges & sent home, salary terminated along with their employment.

If the result of their collision tangible affected Canada in a negative way, they should be charged criminally. Under what section of the CC, I have no idea...


(People get charged with bullcrap & nonsense charges all the time. Literally any docket court across the country is full of silly charges people earned by doing silly things. Yet when it comes to some really serious stuff, done by the very people we elect to represent us, it's like accountability flies right out the window)
 
Here's my take.

If he did read it and decide to kick people out they would probably be able to successfully argue they haven't been proven guilty.

It would also weaken the Conservatives by losing MPs where other parties aren't following suit.

We can safely guess all parties have guilty MPs, and the party leaders will do their best to mitigate their own damages.

If Poilievre reads the report he's going to be accused of trying to protect CPC interests with whatever actions short of firing everyone) he does.

By not reading the report he can remain willfully blind to traitors, which he can't do anything about right now, and call for the names to be released and put all parties on the same footing. Then if he manages to fire anyone, other parties will have to as well or be seen as not taking it as seriously as the CPC.

3 other party leaders have read it, along with others (Joly) and they all have their own versions. There's no advantage to reading it.
The Conservative Party's regulations doesn't give the leader unilateral power to kick members out of caucus, there'd have to be a vote. Even if that could be done, they'd still be a sitting MP until the next election.

You also seem to assume there are sitting Conservative MPs implicated in it when what it said was that there was interference in Conservative Party leadership races (maybe there are sitting CPC members implicated, but there's no indication of that at the moment). If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on the CCP supporting Jean Charest and trying to hold back Polievre in the last leadership race.

 
The Conservative Party's regulations doesn't give the leader unilateral power to kick members out of caucus, there'd have to be a vote. Even if that could be done, they'd still be a sitting MP until the next election.
If that could be done, as an independent kicked out for "reasons not sharable with the public", they'd be pretty isolated when it comes to access to information on the process of government. And I can't see many others wanting to invite him/her to any specific parliamentary sandboxes to play in after that, either.
... You also seem to assume there are sitting Conservative MPs implicated in it when what it said was that there was interference in Conservative Party leadership races (maybe there are sitting CPC members implicated, but there's no indication of that at the moment).
But there's no clear indications that that's not the case, either. Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Which is why some say PP should brief up so, even though he might be gagged in some ways, he could know for certain one way or another - especially since he wants to (and if polling translates to votes, will) form the next government.
If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on the CCP supporting Jean Charest and trying to hold back Polievre in the last leadership race.

And would fit the "former MP" cubbyhole, for sure.
 
But there's no clear indications that that's not the case, either. Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Which is why some say PP should brief up so, even though he might be gagged in some ways, he could know for certain one way or another - especially since he wants to (and if polling translates to votes, will) form the next government.
That would have to be one thing rolling around in the back of his mind or those of party staffers. Without knowing, a look around the caucus table raises the obvious question of 'could one of these numpties potentially harm my chance at the brass ring'?

I originally wrote 'ruin' but the polls suggest that a revelation would have to be pretty explosive. It could mean the difference between majority and minority, however.
 
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