Troops' Internet postings pose security risk, warns military official

[silentbutdeadly]

My problem is then is no OPSEC over there and everyone there will tell you that. Thats what i think people don't understand , so complaining about on here is just funny, ask many person on here ie Jay4th and others.

 

[c1984ml]

Oh and i am far from over myself champ

  We noticed.  :

 

[silentbutdeadly]

And the reason i used the word jealousy is that some people see that stuff and feel its something wrong, but most combat arms see it as educational ie lessons learned

 

[George Wallace]

The matter in discussion is OPSEC and PERSEC.  The videos that were released by Scott Kesterson are probably going to clear any investigation, but what about the other photos, videos, emails coming out of Theatre?  Just look back to Somalia.  Look what a couple of posed photos did there.  It is too easy for any of these 'media' releases, no matter how innocent they may seem at the time, to fall into the wrong hands and be manipulated.  Look at what is happening in the Press in Lebanon.  

The whole idea is to think of OPSEC and PERSEC first before you release any media.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

i agree George! photos are a bigger problem over there the videos. The guys are looking at OPSEC and the videos have been edited for PERSEC reasons.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Maybe i am alittle bias due to the fact my buddy's are in those videos.

 

[cplcaldwell]

silentbutdeadly!: I had to hold back after the use of the word 'jealousy'. If it meant one thing, well, I just wasn't going to go there.

But you've made it clear what you meant, thanks (it did not mean the one thing I was thinking about).

I understand what you are saying, but don't we have a training system and a whole 'Lessons Learned' mob who exist for that sort of thing?

Even so, when you say "but most combat arms see it as educational ie lessons learned" I understand what you say and I agree, these images are good and a good NCO will use them to train at the appropriate level.

But not to put to fine a point on it, is YouTube.com the place to post them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a p****ing match here, just some thoughts.

 

[probum non poenitet]

I think a big part of the unease is that many Canadians are uncomfortable with the idea of us fighting, it's THE political issue of the day, and the more graphic the video, the more it stirs the pot.

My mind isn't made up yet on how graphic is too graphic.

Does it honour or exploit the soldiers to show what they are going through?

If a soldier is wounded, do you show a picture of the medics working on him?
It would be horrible for the family.
But is it better in the long run, so that everyone knows what soldiers are going through? So that nobody thinks war is easy?

OPSEC or not, that question remains. How much combat should the public see?
I am still making up my mind on that one.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

I wish we did have a better Lesson learned cell over there compared to the Americans per say, but we are so behind. We were the Lesson Learned cell over there. Its getting better. I was interviewed by a Capt over there from Kingston about changes to our trainning for future mission, so yeah i seen someone but the turn around rate is very slow. These videos are the only thing we have to true combat  seen by our troops back home. I just think that Paff O out of Edmonton who said this is wrong maybe is mad he didn't get to release it because it is  a pretty cool video.

 

[cplcaldwell]

Okay, thanks.

 

[North Star]

As a former combat arms guy (infantry), I do see some values in recording attacks using the SAM system in the LAVs (when turning it on doesn't kill the radios!) or even in mounting a camera helmet. They can provide valuable lessons. But those lessons are the business of the CF's alone given its professional status and not that of the general public, some of whom have had their perceptions "prepped" by the psyops of our adversaries.

You have to think of this issue from an int perspective. If all I do all day is troll the internet for pams, dissect video footage (PAff approved or not), chat casually with military guys, etc, I can start to build a picture of how a unit operates. I can then use that info to modify my TTPs to counter yours. Int cells do this all the time, collecting SIGINT, IMINT, HUMINT and then fusing it into products we then give to combat arms people. The Taliban aren't dumb, and do the exact same thing. So by posting a video on the net that may seem harmless, but it could add a little bit to a picture the Taliban are building of us that can then be used to their advantage.

A few months ago, someone posted a link to a video called "Baghdad Sniper". While it pissed me off, I watched it with a view to learning something about the insurgency. I quickly noticed a pattern. When soldier's heads were protected, he'd shoot for the neck. If the neck was blocked, he'd go for the thigh. While his organization doubtless posted this crap for a psyop campaign, it presented a picture as to how this particular sniper operated. A lesson can be drawn from it that perhaps we should focus R+D on upper leg protection, as he seems to go for the femoral artery in the absence of a head-shot. They do the exact same thing on their end, making deductions from information and using them.

It may seem a bit anal to harp on OPSEC when nothing ever seems to come of it. However, One Sergeant Major told me something that stuck. As a junior platoon commander I once questioned why the staff evaluating the platoon demanded that my soldiers have to dig in after each attack. Afterall, it was only a training environment. The CSM turned to me and said "Sure, it's a pain now, but it's not a huge discomfort when death is falling from the sky". The OPSEC issues arising from the unauthorized public posting of photos and videos is the same way. It may seem like trivial horsesh-t when nothing comes of it, but when it something does, you'll wish you had practiced it earlier.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

+1

 

[paracowboy]

It may seem a bit anal to harp on OPSEC when nothing ever seems to come of it. However, One Sergeant Major told me something that stuck. As a junior platoon commander I once questioned why the staff evaluating the platoon demanded that my soldiers have to dig in after each attack. Afterall, it was only a training environment. The CSM turned to me and said "Sure, it's a pain now, but it's not a huge discomfort when death is falling from the sky". The OPSEC issues arising from the unauthorized public posting of photos and videos is the same way. It may seem like trivial horsesh-t when nothing comes of it, but when it something does, you'll wish you had practiced it earlier.

this is why I wish the Basic Cbt Int crse was run with every PCF cycle.

 

[CK]

Very well said North Star. 

I agree, the cbt int course is very valuable.  It definitely gives you an appreciation for what others dont see, i.e. thinking that a video of CDN troops in cbt is benign if it doesnt show any locations, pers ident etc.  I'm not going to reiterate North Stars comments though.  I wouldnt be able to articulate it as well.  Bu I want to add that if cbt troops are 'learning' from it, then so are the bad guys.  However you perceive it as edcational, always look at it from the perspective of the bad guy viewing it.  He's not looking at it saying, 'wow those guys are really doing a dangerous job', or 'oh so thats how they do it for real in Afghanistan', he's saying 'so that is how they do things, well this is how we can defeat it' 

As for the Lessons Learned, that is everyones responsibility.  If you have something substantial to contribute, then you need to be proactive and get it to the right people to get it published in a Journal or Dispatches.  If you rely on anyone else to diseminate the information, it wont happen.  And the interenet is not the proper medium to diseminate Lessons Learned, i.e. YouTube.  The Army Lessons Learned Center is.  They are very accomidating from my experience, and I thank them for providing me the opportunity to write a Dispatches. 

There are proper channels to do things, like releasing videos, and they are done that way for reasons that is sometimes beyond the rationalization of those not in the big picture.  Sometimes big picture SA is a need to know, and as a soldier that is something that you have to accept.   

 

[Spartan]

I raise this question more as an observation - how do you control the embedded media? I understand that they have limitations on what they can air (obviously) but I've seen some pretty good footage on the news, as I'm sure you have as well.
Another thing that is being promoted by members (who should be in the know) on this site alone have me wondering (ie video blogs, personal photos (not talking about the hero shots, or the ones with buddies).

Things like the lessons learned, and after action reports/ stories are excellent training tools and reading materials to learn from if widely dissemenated to the lower levels.
I understand someone up way higher than me takes care of the AEL and the various other means - goes through what is sensitive, what isn't - but when I see the wealth of information readily available through it - it makes me go hmmm. I take a gander through it for my own self interest - I wonder what someone really looking for something could find - through government sites alone, not counting the many various forums readily available on the 'Net

 

[The_Falcon]

Watching the news, when it came up that CF is concerned about a series of videos posted on youtube, that were not approved by dnd could comprimise the troops.  I have seen the vids they are talking about (not going to post links, since they may have violated OPSEC) and they are pretty interesting to say the least.  Anyways here are some news articles discussing this, reproduced fair dealings yadda yadda

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1155161413920&call_pageid=968332188492

Combat clips raise alarm
Unauthorized Web videos of soldiers
Liberal critic: `They could pose a danger'
Aug. 10, 2006. 06:54 AM
STEVE RENNIE
STAFF REPORTER


Unauthorized combat videos of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan surfacing online may be endangering the safety of the troops, says an opposition MP.

Reached by the Star last night, Liberal defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh said, "It is quite likely that they could pose a danger," if they disclose operational tactics.

He was referring to a growing number of videos popping up on YouTube.com, a website that allows users to post video clips online.

Entering the search terms "Afghanistan," "Canadian Forces" and "Taliban" yields several videos of what are alleged to be Canadian troops in Afghanistan in a firefight with the Taliban. Some of the videos, posted by a user identified as *****, identify the soldiers as "removed by me"

Those videos are credited to "assclown." A link to assclown myspace.com website reveals that he appears to be a freelance photojournalist from Oregon embedded with the U.S. Army in Afghanistan. It's uncertain if assclown posted the videos on YouTube.com and he could not be reached for comment last night.

Searching for related videos on assclown YouTube page turns up thousands of related videos, many showing similar combat footage of Canadian soldiers.

Dosanjh called on the Canadian Forces to investigate the source of the videos to ensure the troops' safety isn't in danger.

"In these kinds of situations, if there's any possibility, even the remotest possibility or likelihood, that our troops may be endangered — they're already in a very difficult situation— we should be very vigilant about protecting their safety," he said.

A Department of National Defence spokesman said it's the Forces' understanding that assclown, who is not Canadian, was one of several journalists embedded in Afghanistan with a multi-national brigade that was authorized to shoot video footage of the Canadian troops.

However, Lieut. Adam Thomson said there's not much the Forces can do to stop unauthorized videos from popping up on websites like YouTube. "We really can't control it once it's out there," Thomson said. "Once it's put on the Internet, it's going to be widely circulated. It's pretty difficult to pull it off a website if it's already out there in the public domain."

Thompson said some of the footage is similar to that on Combat Camera, the government's official military video website. He said the Canadian Expeditionary Force Command, which is responsible for Canadian Forces operations outside Canada, must approve all Combat Camera footage shot abroad.

Dosanjh said Canadian soldiers should not be punished if they post videos on sites like YouTube, claiming it's the government's obligation to ensure the troops aren't exposed to undue risk. "I can't really criticize the soldiers doing this kind of thing. They themselves ought to know if it could be dangerous for them," he said.

A departmental spokesman said Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor would not comment until he had watched the videos.

Note I removed references that would make it easier to find said videos

Just to note, these aren't the videos that have already been posted here, and I will leave it to the mods to decide whether or not the article above should be un-edited.

 

[Blakey]

Note I removed references that would make it easier to find said videos

Just to note, these aren't the videos that have already been posted here, and I will leave it to the mods to decide whether or not the article above should be un-edited.

You are a little late with the Videos being posted.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48341/post-422236.html#msg422236

Edited to add: Why would you edit the article in the first place?

 

[The_Falcon]

You are a little late with the Videos being posted.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48341/post-422236.html#msg422236

Edited to add: Why would you edit the article in the first place?

That maybe so, but in light of the fact that senior DND officials are trying to determine if the creator of these videos violated our OPSEC, they should be taken down.  And I edited the article to err on the side of caution WRT to this sites guidelines on things dealing with OPSEC.  Why make it any easier to find these videos.

 

[Blakey]

If you didn't want to "make it easier" to find the videos, you shouldn't have even posted the story, nor the link to it.
That's where I'll leave that at, I believe there is a seven or eight page thread somewhere here discussing the pros's and con's of posting such videos.
Edit: Found it http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48635.0.html

 

[The_Falcon]

If you didn't want to "make it easier" to find the videos, you shouldn't have even posted the story, nor the link to it.
That's where I'll leave that at, I believe there is a seven or eight page thread somewhere here discussing the pros's and con's of posting such videos.
Edit: Found it http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48635.0.html

It actually three pages, and I guess this can be merged.