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Transition to Municipal Police Force

Better to have phrased the sentiment as a premised question rather than statement; not everyone catches inferences:

"If RCMP policing very large municipalities is the exception and not the rule, there must be reasons. What are they?"
 
Better to have phrased the sentiment as a premised question rather than statement; not everyone catches inferences:

"If RCMP policing very large municipalities is the exception and not the rule, there must be reasons. What are they?"
You're correct Brad.
 
As an observer way across the country, I've never quite understood the political or social issues that have prevented the lower mainland, and I suppose the Greater Victoria area, from consolidating their police services. It strikes me as very American. Rightly or wrongly, Ontario forced the issue as far back as the early 1970s with the creation of regions, mostly around Toronto as well as more recently with the municipalities such as (expanded) Ottawa and Chatham-Kent.

It's probably easier for pundits and critics to consider the merits of municipal or provincial policing in areas of reasonable population density; less so when it's Telegraph Creek BC, Gillam MB or St. Anthony NL.

Bear in mind that it’s provincial statute that defines policing services. Although the RCMP is a federal organization, they are also legally the “provincial police” in several provinces. A municipality that doesn’t have its own service defaults to RCMP under provincial contracts.

A contract with the RCMP comes with significant federal subsidy- 10% for larger communities, and I think as high as 30% for small ones. It also gives potential access to supporting resources from the rest of the RCMP, depending on need. There’s also economies of scale for training, infrastructure, procurement, IM/IT… Just how much that saves is very much open to debate of course.

It’s easy at first glance for a municipality to look at mounties (or OPP, or Sureté du Quebec) and to think “well, we want police with our city’s name on the shoulder”. Absolutely fair. It gets harder as soon as that means an immediate budget hit for loss of subsidy; for the municipality to have to procure guns, cars, and radios; and for the municipality to have to build its own records management infrastructure. It can absolutely be done; if Brockville or Corman Park can have their own police, they Surrey or Richmond or Moncton could too. It’s just a big pill to swallow, fiscally.

I think the RCMP, internally, is opening up a bigger gulf between federal and contract policing (probably to protect the former from the latter in terms of human resources), but that’s a far cry from the organization deciding they no longer want to police towns. That would probably be a decision at federal cabinet level, with a ten or twenty year timeframe.

Minor but real issue- an RCMP departure from contract policing in the provinces would still likely leave a residual need to provide uniformed policing for the territories, unless the feds threw each territory a bunch of money and support for its own service… But good luck staffing that.

There is a different calculation between 'creating' and police service and 'keeping' one. The number of police services in Ontario is in the low 40s, where it used to be about 150. Some reduction was a result of amalgamation but the vast majority was through contract absorption by the OPP. The biggest driver is personnel costs, although there are others. A simple example is a municipality with its own police service has to pay a Chief; whereas in a hybrid OPP detachment (a collection of contracts), they would pay a percentage of an Inspector - big difference. For a smaller municipality, the economies of scale are hard to ignore or overcome. With contract term limits, many municipalities shop around to see if they can get a better deal. The OPP has lost a few townships to adjoining municipal services, sometimes temporarily. Some small municipal councils huff and puff about control until they (a) see the price tag and (b) realize how little control they can exert over policing.

I though about it for a bit and I really can't recall the last non-FN police service that was created from scratch (not amalgamated) in Ontario.

The OPP has never done 'big cities' like Surrey. Probably the closest were the City of Kanata and Kingston Township before municipal restructuring. There are some county-level contracts that involve populations upwards of 90K but probably the closest to 'urban' is the Town of Caledon (part of Peel Region) at about 70K.
 
Recreating the BC provincial police has been a topic out here forever, in limited circles.
By why not walk before running. Why no 'Metro' or 'Greater' Vancouver PS? Depending on how you define it, were probably talking a couple of million people.
 
Egad. Talk about moving the goalposts. Now it is necessary to investigate the cultures of the municipal politics of the communities of the lower mainland...
 
By why not walk before running. Why no 'Metro' or 'Greater' Vancouver PS? Depending on how you define it, were probably talking a couple of million people.
You would never, ever convince the likes of Vancouver, Delta, Abbotsford, Port Moody, and West Vancouver to give up their "superior" "community oriented" Police forces for a regional. They're all convinced they do it the best, bar none. Their respective Police boards and City Councils are fiercely defensive of their PD's, mostly because of the prevalence of RCMP in the area.
 
A few years ago, Esquimalt PD was assimilated into Victoria PD. Since then, Esquimalt council and residents have been upset that now those units that used to patrol Esquimalt are now patrolling downtown Victoria instead.

I think I have heard that Esquimalt is now in the process of separating from Victoria PD.

Don’t count on Oak Bay amalgamating with Victoria. Residents there like having a police force that will respond to their reports of a homeless man walking down the street and make sure he ends up back downtown.
 
A few years ago, Esquimalt PD was assimilated into Victoria PD. Since then, Esquimalt council and residents have been upset that now those units that used to patrol Esquimalt are now patrolling downtown Victoria instead.

I think I have heard that Esquimalt is now in the process of separating from Victoria PD.

Don’t count on Oak Bay amalgamating with Victoria. Residents there like having a police force that will respond to their reports of a homeless man walking down the street and make sure he ends up back downtown.
This is politics trumping operations- it makes operational sense for cops to be where crime is. That “we pay for the car so I want to see it” is the bane of every police manager trying to deal with crime trends.
 
My sense is that they are all watching to see how Surrey works out, first.

Of course, that could all change if the Feds decide to get out of contract policing and force the provinces/municipalities to create their own policing structures…
my question is, why doesn't greater Vancouver enable a GV Police Service. its still a bunch of departments and detachments, all policing the same general area. Montreal and Toronto don't have the patchwork that the lower mainland has.
 
They're making all sorts of headlines ;)

Surrey Police Service officer arrested just 4 months after being deployed​

An officer with Surrey's new municipal police force – who had been on the job for just four months – has been arrested by Surrey RCMP.

The officer works for the Surrey Police Service, which said in a news release that it was releasing information on the arrest "in the interest of transparency."

The SPS did not share the officer's name, age or gender, nor any of the details of the alleged crime, other than that the officer is facing a possible charge of breach of trust, which has not yet been approved by the BC Prosecution Service.

and this would be a big deal if a CAF Div/Brigade/Unit member got hooked up???
 
You would never, ever convince the likes of Vancouver, Delta, Abbotsford, Port Moody, and West Vancouver to give up their "superior" "community oriented" Police forces for a regional. They're all convinced they do it the best, bar none. Their respective Police boards and City Councils are fiercely defensive of their PD's, mostly because of the prevalence of RCMP in the area.
No doubt. It would take a strong hand from the provincial government. I imagine all the individual municipal services in the GTA back in the day were quite happy with the status quo as well.

Other than municipal structuring, Ontario has historically written the ground rules but let the municipalities decide their own policing fate; that's how the OPP polices part of a region, and there are two police services covering a single-tier municipality. Quebec took a very prescriptive approach. I'm not familiar with all of the details but essentially decided who shall, and shall not, maintain a police service. Even within that, some smaller services are not allowed to have sole carriage of certain benchmark crimes.

I'm not arguing one way is better than the other; just surprised is all, particularly given the cost and operational issues of multiple jurisdictions in a fairly integrated urban area.
 
No doubt. It would take a strong hand from the provincial government. I imagine all the individual municipal services in the GTA back in the day were quite happy with the status quo as well.

Other than municipal structuring, Ontario has historically written the ground rules but let the municipalities decide their own policing fate; that's how the OPP polices part of a region, and there are two police services covering a single-tier municipality. Quebec took a very prescriptive approach. I'm not familiar with all of the details but essentially decided who shall, and shall not, maintain a police service. Even within that, some smaller services are not allowed to have sole carriage of certain benchmark crimes.

I'm not arguing one way is better than the other; just surprised is all, particularly given the cost and operational issues of multiple jurisdictions in a fairly integrated urban area.
Quebec has six levels of policing service, tied to population, with increasing capabilities, investigative roles, and functions as a police service increases in levels. Some capabilities are only maintained by Sureté du Québec. The province is very regimented in what a police service will and will not do and what they can investigate.

 
I know police forces poach off of each other but to buy ads on Facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/SurreyPS?_...g_yRw9rZmZ5SNe6r2Qi8xQpDObUzQqg&[B]tn[/B]=<*F

Surrey Police Service

rnedsootSpMPrrF 4 ai15:0303t14h7lbfa19culhy 3f39e511guf0c f5 ·

You bring more than the average police officer; we bring more than the average police agency.
Surrey Police Service will be in Mississauga to meet with experienced officers interested in joining SPS. Our Recruiting team will be available from March 8 and 10, if you’d like to know more about a career at SPS email: careers@surreypolice.ca
 

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Surrey Police Service will be in Mississauga to meet with experienced officers interested in joining SPS.

Never been to Surrey, B.C..

Peel Regional Police serve Brampton and Mississauga. Is Peel at all similar to Survey?
 
Never been to Surrey, B.C..

Peel Regional Police serve Brampton and Mississauga. Is Peel at all similar to Survey?
I think busy urban policing isn’t very different between different jurisdictions. The faces and names are different but the behaviours, problems, and emergencies are pretty much the same.

Anecdotally from a buddy working in Peel, Mississauga is a mess, and policing there can suck. That said I’m doubtful many will pull the pin and hop over when it’s unclear if SPS will continue to exist. Maybe they’re hiring out of province in part because of that, and hoping prospective lateral recruits may not realize just how up in the air it is?
 
I know police forces poach off of each other but to buy ads on Facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/SurreyPS?__cft__[0]=AZWx3FMQuDDHLUBtAfZ_InVzlHTr4FIiJtsEnyqbuUYjQBTDr4pThjXlgs16XPGw0SyDF9Z_EC5XuDVLBpPn6_LjCD9zsJydd9wUne_4Ks8q04rO-sDNOeVM6_5j9qGGMMrvtC07wTiVJoA-gEARZyeDY3Whn12-nY3NX0zUIMlLOmYwtkB9J1pktg10jmg1i3dP5yz36OgtLaKj_pnzs1-gmxGXZC1osVSGY2phPzNUBpWThsQZ6mFOrnSDkRUm3R_sbuK7TxjXgklyMv0YcL2h4xDCeZMUihVZ76JnTMKmXYOgs1AJOhs5tUnGCMSPWKDT4ScYa1ziB-2g_yRw9rZmZ5SNe6r2Qi8xQpDObUzQqg&tn=<*F

Surrey Police Service

rnedsootSpMPrrF 4 ai15:0303t14h7lbfa19culhy 3f39e511guf0c f5 ·

You bring more than the average police officer; we bring more than the average police agency.
Surrey Police Service will be in Mississauga to meet with experienced officers interested in joining SPS. Our Recruiting team will be available from March 8 and 10, if you’d like to know more about a career at SPS email: careers@surreypolice.ca
That's a pretty blatant poaching move. It is interesting that they are targetting Peel rather than setting up in a more general venue and advertise to all of the GTA services. The OPP intakes a number of 'experienced recruits' per year from other services but purposely limits the numbers. They are a member of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police so have to get along.

I'm not convinced they will generate a lot of interest. That would be a long, costly move unless SPS is willing to big up the cost. One of the big barriers would likely be pension portability. Younger members might be willing to take a cash buy out but that would be a big step for a member with a family. It was a problem even within Ontario until legislation enabled more portability. And it's not like they would would be moving to a cheaper area.
 
I think busy urban policing isn’t very different between different jurisdictions.

Reason I asked is, I wonder if SPS specifically focused on Peel ( Brampton and Mississauga ) police. They have experience serving a fairly large South Asian community.

Or, perhaps it was just random co-incidence.

But, when I scrolled down to Visible Minorities, it appears Surry, B.C. also has a large South Asian community.


The visible minority population consists mainly of the following groups: South Asian, Chinese, Black, Filipino, Latin American, Arab, Southeast Asian, West Asian, Korean and Japanese.

Of the above, according to the chart, the South Asian community was, by far, the largest.
 
That's a pretty blatant poaching move. It is interesting that they are targetting Peel rather than setting up in a more general venue and advertise to all of the GTA services. The OPP intakes a number of 'experienced recruits' per year from other services but purposely limits the numbers. They are a member of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police so have to get along.

I'm not convinced they will generate a lot of interest. That would be a long, costly move unless SPS is willing to big up the cost. One of the big barriers would likely be pension portability. Younger members might be willing to take a cash buy out but that would be a big step for a member with a family. It was a problem even within Ontario until legislation enabled more portability. And it's not like they would would be moving to a cheaper area.
It’s totally normal for cities to target other cities forces. Edmonton and Calgary have gone east and west. Edmonton at one point sent some to the UK for experienced officers. A large city recruiter was also found meeting with recruits at or around their graduations to suggest they lateral.

Sometimes it’s linked to a school or a program and they are invited etc.

I believe the Uk experienced officer one has fallen out of favour.

The Facebook ads and experienced police are normal as well- they are also targeted ads based on what people are searching and talking about,
 
Don’t count on Oak Bay amalgamating with Victoria. Residents there like having a police force that will respond to their reports of a homeless man walking down the street and make sure he ends up back downtown.
That’s no homeless man. That’s my buddy Mike walking all the streets of Oak Bay!😂
 
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